Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1788003 times)

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7545 on: November 13, 2021, 02:02:40 PM »
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It was policy back then. one of the worst things they could have done making a policy to get rid of old evidence but that's what they did. times were different in lots of ways back then..you could walk right into a crime scene. look what the media did at Tbar, they were right there with them.

Over time they learned from the mistakes. they had no clue the butts could end up being the most important piece of evidence in the case. same for the tie by handling it with no gloves, joking around with it, wearing it! today hundreds of photo's are taken, crime scenes are locked tight and evidence is carefully handled and documented.

Things can be checked in seconds vs days or weeks compared to 50 years ago. DNA is probably one thing they can't control or get in one day but this will change in the future.

Speaking of pictures, maybe I am being naĂŻve, but I would have expected them to have take hundreds of pictures of the inside of the plane when it landed at Reno, as soon as they finished clearing the scene for Coop of course, are we saying that that wasn't done ?  If pictures were taken, are those out of the scope of the FOIA requests?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7546 on: November 13, 2021, 02:58:55 PM »
I just don't think they did. no pics of the chutes or money bag either. as mentioned, it was different times and the procedures were much different and slowly progressed to more thorough examination of crime scenes as time passed.

Today, pics and video are used a lot in documenting crime scenes, even 3D layouts and video is used.

1971 had little testing abilities on fabric and couldn't do much with things like the tie.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7547 on: November 13, 2021, 03:20:05 PM »
The Washington historical society gave me the pics they have of the inside of the plane during the testing of the stairs. these are the only known photo's that have surfaced.

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« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 03:20:26 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7548 on: November 13, 2021, 04:50:32 PM »
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The Washington historical society gave me the pics they have of the inside of the plane during the testing of the stairs. these are the only known photo's that have surfaced.

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that link is the sharing link for a single picture, not the sharing link for the folder?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7549 on: November 13, 2021, 04:51:20 PM »
Sorry, let me see what I did.. :'(
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7550 on: November 13, 2021, 04:54:11 PM »
Should work now..

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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7551 on: November 13, 2021, 04:56:15 PM »
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Should work now..

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yup. just 6 photos?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7552 on: November 13, 2021, 04:57:42 PM »
yep, I have duplicates they sent but that was the only interior pics..I can post the entire selection?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7553 on: November 13, 2021, 05:01:15 PM »
See if this works

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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7554 on: November 13, 2021, 05:04:39 PM »
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See if this works

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yeah, lots more photos there. thanks.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7555 on: November 15, 2021, 11:48:02 AM »
This was discussed on the DZ last year, but it was left unresolved. That is, the question of Cooper and the chutes from McChord.

Himmelsbach claims that DBC specifically requested the chutes come from McChord. Contemporaneous news articles at the time say Cooper was offered chutes from McChord and rejected them for an unknown reason. Some sources say he rejected the military chutes and demanded sport chutes.  The 302s only mention the Hayden/Cossey/Emerick chutes.

We know he ultimately ended up with two Navy rigs - McChord is/was an air force base. Fort Lewis did not have a paratrooper unit deployed there and paratroopers use static line - impossible for a jump from a commercial jetliner. I would assume the USAF would have bailout rigs, but my understanding is that they are almost universally automatic deployment and not manual ripcord. As R99 has pointed out, most military rigs contained beepers or pingers to locate the personnel attached to them.

So, what's the deal here? Did Cooper want chutes from McChord or not? If he didn't want military chutes, then why did he jump with one? And what about Cooper's complaint that "McChord is only a 20 minute drive"? If he was expecting the chutes from McChord, then why reject them? Were there two chute deliveries? Can anyone make sense of the McChord Chute Stuff?

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7556 on: November 15, 2021, 12:46:26 PM »
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This was discussed on the DZ last year, but it was left unresolved. That is, the question of Cooper and the chutes from McChord.

Himmelsbach claims that DBC specifically requested the chutes come from McChord. Contemporaneous news articles at the time say Cooper was offered chutes from McChord and rejected them for an unknown reason. Some sources say he rejected the military chutes and demanded sport chutes.  The 302s only mention the Hayden/Cossey/Emerick chutes.

We know he ultimately ended up with two Navy rigs - McChord is/was an air force base. Fort Lewis did not have a paratrooper unit deployed there and paratroopers use static line - impossible for a jump from a commercial jetliner. I would assume the USAF would have bailout rigs, but my understanding is that they are almost universally automatic deployment and not manual ripcord. As R99 has pointed out, most military rigs contained beepers or pingers to locate the personnel attached to them.

So, what's the deal here? Did Cooper want chutes from McChord or not? If he didn't want military chutes, then why did he jump with one? And what about Cooper's complaint that "McChord is only a 20 minute drive"? If he was expecting the chutes from McChord, then why reject them? Were there two chute deliveries? Can anyone make sense of the McChord Chute Stuff?

Chaucer, military paratroopers were doing free fall (HALO - High Altitude Low Opening) jumps from at least the mid-1960s.  I saw military paratroopers demonstrating this about 1964 or 1965.

If the missing Hayden parachute is similar to the one he donated to the WSHM, then he did not have a Navy parachute.  The WSHM/Hayden parachute appears to have been assembled by Cossey from multiple sources for various rigs and not one particular design.

In Vietnam, the military parachutes did have pingers which everyone with suitable radio equipment, including the bad guys, could home in on.  Today's military pilots have access to personal equipment devices that includes two-way voice communications, GPS locations, etc., all of which can be transmitted enciphered.

Generally speaking, today's military emergency parachutes involve free falling to about 14,000 feet where the parachute will automatically open.  If the ejection is below 14,000 feet, the parachute will open immediately.  The pilot can also pull the ripcord which will override the automatic system. 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7557 on: November 15, 2021, 02:22:46 PM »
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This was discussed on the DZ last year, but it was left unresolved. That is, the question of Cooper and the chutes from McChord.

Himmelsbach claims that DBC specifically requested the chutes come from McChord. Contemporaneous news articles at the time say Cooper was offered chutes from McChord and rejected them for an unknown reason. Some sources say he rejected the military chutes and demanded sport chutes.  The 302s only mention the Hayden/Cossey/Emerick chutes.

We know he ultimately ended up with two Navy rigs - McChord is/was an air force base. Fort Lewis did not have a paratrooper unit deployed there and paratroopers use static line - impossible for a jump from a commercial jetliner. I would assume the USAF would have bailout rigs, but my understanding is that they are almost universally automatic deployment and not manual ripcord. As R99 has pointed out, most military rigs contained beepers or pingers to locate the personnel attached to them.

So, what's the deal here? Did Cooper want chutes from McChord or not? If he didn't want military chutes, then why did he jump with one? And what about Cooper's complaint that "McChord is only a 20 minute drive"? If he was expecting the chutes from McChord, then why reject them? Were there two chute deliveries? Can anyone make sense of the McChord Chute Stuff?

Chaucer, military paratroopers were doing free fall (HALO - High Altitude Low Opening) jumps from at least the mid-1960s.  I saw military paratroopers demonstrating this about 1964 or 1965.

If the missing Hayden parachute is similar to the one he donated to the WSHM, then he did not have a Navy parachute.  The WSHM/Hayden parachute appears to have been assembled by Cossey from multiple sources for various rigs and not one particular design.

In Vietnam, the military parachutes did have pingers which everyone with suitable radio equipment, including the bad guys, could home in on.  Today's military pilots have access to personal equipment devices that includes two-way voice communications, GPS locations, etc., all of which can be transmitted enciphered.

Generally speaking, today's military emergency parachutes involve free falling to about 14,000 feet where the parachute will automatically open.  If the ejection is below 14,000 feet, the parachute will open immediately.  The pilot can also pull the ripcord which will override the automatic system.
This is good information, and I appreciate it, but it doesn't exactly answer my question regarding the chutes from McChord.

I think this question is crucial because it could say a lot about Cooper's experience level in regards to jumping. If he expected the chutes from McChord, then why is there anecdotal evidence that he rejected them? If the chutes were not from McChord then why is Cooper complaining about how long it is taking and references the drive time from McChord? Obviously, there would be differences between a USAF bailout parachute, a paratrooper static line chute, and a Navy bailout rig. It would seem that DBC was uninterested in which chute which is strange. I would assume that an experienced jumper would specify what chute he wanted and where it came from.

So, did Cooper reject the chutes from McChord, and if so, when and why?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7558 on: November 15, 2021, 04:25:50 PM »
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This was discussed on the DZ last year, but it was left unresolved. That is, the question of Cooper and the chutes from McChord.

Himmelsbach claims that DBC specifically requested the chutes come from McChord. Contemporaneous news articles at the time say Cooper was offered chutes from McChord and rejected them for an unknown reason. Some sources say he rejected the military chutes and demanded sport chutes.  The 302s only mention the Hayden/Cossey/Emerick chutes.

We know he ultimately ended up with two Navy rigs - McChord is/was an air force base. Fort Lewis did not have a paratrooper unit deployed there and paratroopers use static line - impossible for a jump from a commercial jetliner. I would assume the USAF would have bailout rigs, but my understanding is that they are almost universally automatic deployment and not manual ripcord. As R99 has pointed out, most military rigs contained beepers or pingers to locate the personnel attached to them.

So, what's the deal here? Did Cooper want chutes from McChord or not? If he didn't want military chutes, then why did he jump with one? And what about Cooper's complaint that "McChord is only a 20 minute drive"? If he was expecting the chutes from McChord, then why reject them? Were there two chute deliveries? Can anyone make sense of the McChord Chute Stuff?

Chaucer, military paratroopers were doing free fall (HALO - High Altitude Low Opening) jumps from at least the mid-1960s.  I saw military paratroopers demonstrating this about 1964 or 1965.

If the missing Hayden parachute is similar to the one he donated to the WSHM, then he did not have a Navy parachute.  The WSHM/Hayden parachute appears to have been assembled by Cossey from multiple sources for various rigs and not one particular design.

In Vietnam, the military parachutes did have pingers which everyone with suitable radio equipment, including the bad guys, could home in on.  Today's military pilots have access to personal equipment devices that includes two-way voice communications, GPS locations, etc., all of which can be transmitted enciphered.

Generally speaking, today's military emergency parachutes involve free falling to about 14,000 feet where the parachute will automatically open.  If the ejection is below 14,000 feet, the parachute will open immediately.  The pilot can also pull the ripcord which will override the automatic system.
This is good information, and I appreciate it, but it doesn't exactly answer my question regarding the chutes from McChord.

I think this question is crucial because it could say a lot about Cooper's experience level in regards to jumping. If he expected the chutes from McChord, then why is there anecdotal evidence that he rejected them? If the chutes were not from McChord then why is Cooper complaining about how long it is taking and references the drive time from McChord? Obviously, there would be differences between a USAF bailout parachute, a paratrooper static line chute, and a Navy bailout rig. It would seem that DBC was uninterested in which chute which is strange. I would assume that an experienced jumper would specify what chute he wanted and where it came from.

So, did Cooper reject the chutes from McChord, and if so, when and why?

The hijacking started a few minutes before 3:00 PM while the airliner was in the act of taking off from Portland International Airport.  Hayden's backpack parachutes were delivered to the NWA facility at SEATAC shortly after 5:00 PM.  That is just a bit more than two hours time.  The reserve chutes were delivered to the NWA facility shortly after that.

When informed of the hijacker's demands for parachutes, the NWA personnel at SEATAC contacted someone they knew at Boeing Field and someone at Boeing Field contacted Hayden.  Hayden sent both of his backpacks to Boeing Field by taxi and the people at Boeing Field got them to NWA at SEATAC either by taxi or personal car.

There is nothing in the paperwork to indicate that NWA personnel ever contacted McChord about anything related to the hijacking.  In fact, any contacts with McChord would probably have been done by the FBI.

There are only four parachutes involved in the hijacking, not six parachutes, or even eight parachutes as some have claimed.  NWA was working on a tight time schedule (Cooper wanted everything ready by 5:00 PM) and coming up with four parachutes in a two-hour time frame required some fast actions by everyone concerned.

In my opinion, no McChord parachutes could have been made available in that two-hour time frame.  In any event, they are not a factor in the hijacking.  Ignore them.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7559 on: November 15, 2021, 06:40:03 PM »
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When informed of the hijacker's demands for parachutes, the NWA personnel at SEATAC contacted someone they knew at Boeing Field and someone at Boeing Field contacted Hayden.  Hayden sent both of his backpacks to Boeing Field by taxi and the people at Boeing Field got them to NWA at SEATAC either by taxi or personal car.


That's not what Norman Hayden told me. You have additional sources to corroborate this scenario?