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Cigarette stains ON THE FINGERS 'OF' THE RIGHT HAND!

Its simple Flyjack. Learn how to read ENGLISH!

FINGERS ARE ON HANDS. FINGERS ARE NOT ON FEET!  SHEESH! 

The guy was probably right handed.

On the contrary, if the stains are on the right hand then he was probably left-handed.  Assuming he could smoke and work a crossword puzzle at the same time.

heh who knows
But do you agree there was no report talking about cigarette stains on (cooper) hands before 1988?

that's the key thing. It seems wrong to me. I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

I have seen some of the stain posts but don't remember where they originated.

thanks. Until someone is willing to show a series of reports that say such a description existed in the '70s, I think there's no reason to believe it's true.

I mean, it could be true, but random things could be true. We know FBI reports are not all accurate, and I've explained why I think the report from 1988 (none earlier) is inaccurate.

FJ is trolling. Had cig stains on his finger, comma, hands, comma right hand, comma, ass, comma, butt, ears, eyeballs, comma, and other places !

ITS A GAME CHANGER,   comma,     

ITS A CROCK,  COMMA,   YOU TOOK IT SERIOUSLY,    COMMA,     all from the guy who wants to be taken seriously.

Coimma.   

in my experience, if someone is posting about cooper because they're actually interested in the case, that one should refrain from either bullying, arrogance, trying to convince others of xyz, angling for money etc.

Because: there's nothing to constrain other posters from starting to drive the train into crazyville.

You have to have spent time during Jo Weber Times, to understand what a waste of bits this can all become in the fast descent to hell.

so basically: don't rant against others, lead by example.

There's no motivation or reason to act rational in any of these posts. The "shared rational attitude" is just an agreement between people treated as equals. You can't beat someone into submission to get that.

Because: the most rational thing one can say about Cooper is: Who gives a fuck?

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Question on the money for anyone.  We know that packets/bundles etc. were found, totaling around $5800.  We believe that all those bills had serial numbers.  Current research says maybe it was less than $5800? Maybe more?  Maybe some of the serial numbers are wrong.  My question is this: Weren't there shards found (quite a bit)? Were these tied to the bills that were found, or are they totally separate?  If they are separate, then more money was lost/buried/went through the dredge etc.  If so, how much?

The "extra" money, meaning those bills that created the shards, is undetermined. Nevertheless, there is some data that gives an educated opinion on the total number of bills deposited at T-Bar. Dorwin told me that he and his team found dozens, if not hundreds, of shards of at least 1-inch in diameter for a radius of 20 feet from the Ingram find, and down to a depth of three feet. Plus, we have seen the KATU videos of about six shards of at least 2-3 inches being placed in Plasticine evidence envelopes, which are all now missing.

I have heard numerous discussions that estimate these shards were generated from another $400 worth of bills - basically another 20 twenties. That makes the grand total of T-Bar money to be about $6,200. That's the figure I use in my book.

Newbie here...(hi to all), bare with me if I botch this first post 

Bruce, this is the first time I have come across anyone putting the shards into any context in terms of how much additional money they may amount to.  I was always kind of thinking that the shards "controversy" was about a substantial portion of the ransom money well beyond the original ~$5800.  And I know this is all speculation based on input from some folks and best guesses, but if the shards are only from an additional $400 give or take, it doesn't really move the needle for me toward the idea that the dredge was responsible for dicing up bills as much as it would if it was a lot more money.

But, as many others have pointed out, the key to me is whether any of these shards as a readable serial number on them ?  If so, is it linked to the orginal 3 packets/bundles/straps ? or is it from an entirely different packet ?  Thanks !

On dropzone.com, Flyjack apparently is suggesting that the 1988 report that said there was a cooper description that included "right hand cigarette stains"...was due to an accidental release of "held back" information.

For that to be true, there would have to be a FBI report with that description from a witness, that is either redacted, or that we've not seen yet from the FOIA activity. It would have to be an early '70s report? Possibly 1971? Unless there was a later interview where someone suddenly remembered something.

I didn't check the name of the agent writing the 1988 report, but it's unlikely he was there in 1971, so he must have wrote it from some recollection of some report he read, or just accidently made it up from a false recollection. Remember, the 1988 report(s) were about a suspect who "did" have right hand cigarette stains. (two different suspects, both named Cooper. Geez, three different cooper descriptions! No wonder an agent could screw up while reading reports!)

I was confident we have all 302's describing Cooper. From Geoffrey Gray we have unredacted 302s from the flight crew and passengers. I'm not aware of any redaction in descriptions, from the fbi files.

How could this "held back" information have existed in a report, but nothing suggesting it in anything we've seen yet?

Do unreleased Cooper descriptions exist? That would be amazing, as there could be more information. For instance: did Cooper have tattoos? Was that held back (still?)

And why would they hold back "right hand cigarette stains" ?? That doesn't seem damning, since they already at times said Cooper was a heavy smoker (even though that was debatable)

Note that in 1988, there are two reports about suspects named "Cooper"

I think both of the suspects had right hand cigarette stains?

Without any report saying that a real Cooper description included right hand stains, it would seem most likely that the 1988 agent was just wrong.

I really can't imagine some hidden (to date) Cooper description existing in the FBI files, still unreleased, still secret.

Newbie here...(hi to all), bare with me if I botch this first post 

Bruce, this is the first time I have come across anyone putting the shards into any context in terms of how much additional money they may amount to.  I was always kind of thinking that the shards "controversy" was about a substantial portion of the ransom money well beyond the original ~$5800.  And I know this is all speculation based on input from some folks and best guesses, but if the shards are only from an additional $400 give or take, it doesn't really move the needle for me toward the idea that the dredge was responsible for dicing up bills as much as it would if it was a lot more money.

But, as many others have pointed out, the key to me is whether any of these shards as a readable serial number on them ?  If so, is it linked to the orginal 3 packets/bundles/straps ? or is it from an entirely different packet ?  Thanks !

Yes, the shards that Dorwin and team put in evidentiary envelopes had partial serial numbers on them. As Snowmman has pointed out above, there is no way to know definitively if they came from the three bundolas or from a fourth packet.

As I understand the Ingram find, the auction company found some additional bills schmooshed tightly onto the bundle of other bills that they bought from Brian Ingram. In fact, they had to separate the bills via surgical-like procedures. Add those bills to the shards and we have a bit more than 5800 bucks. Maybe 6200 according to some estimates. This is as my memory recalls. Exact details are out in my files. Please don't ask me to hunt for them until you really need that info.

On that topic, the CS team did find two plastic containers with shard bits - they are so small they look like "bill dust."

Also interesting - but still not corroborated - is what Georger posted here years ago, stating that Dorwin had told him that there was a shard field on the surface that a "blind man could follow," and it spread down the beach for 60 yards. At least that is what I remember G posting here.

So...

Anyway, welcome to the Forum, JAG.