Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1698416 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7275 on: September 09, 2021, 02:44:21 PM »
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This is a followup the fbi did with one stewardess on description. (they apparently did with all...this is the longest followup..the interviews are all next to each other in the file)

It's FBI file 19 page 67

which stewardess is it? It's the first page of 2 pages. (67 and 68)

She described Cooper as "slightly balding" in the last paragraph.
On the 2nd page of the interview, also attached she said "hair should be thinner"

Is this Mucklow? The length of the interview and detail makes me think Mucklow

There were two other similar interviews before this, labelled "stewardess"
so those were 2 other stewardesses. They were only short 1 page interviews.

This interview doesn't say "stewardess"

Only Stewardess Flo and Alice (Hancock) were interviewed in Seattle and on the night of the hijacking.  Tina and the flight crew were interviewed in Reno after landing there.  They flew the airliner back to SEATAC the following day but were on a flight to Minneapolis within 10 or 15 minutes after landing.  The three flight crew members and three stewardesses were publicly interviewed in Minneapolis later that evening (Thanksgiving night). 
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7276 on: September 09, 2021, 03:07:45 PM »
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This is a followup the fbi did with one stewardess on description. (they apparently did with all...this is the longest followup..the interviews are all next to each other in the file)

It's FBI file 19 page 67

which stewardess is it? It's the first page of 2 pages. (67 and 68)


It seems to me the comment about thinner hair and balding came from Tina Mucklow. I just wanted someone to confirm it. It's probably better if you look at the fbi file around the pages I mentioned, to get context and discrimination.

She described Cooper as "slightly balding" in the last paragraph.
On the 2nd page of the interview, also attached she said "hair should be thinner"

Is this Mucklow? The length of the interview and detail makes me think Mucklow

There were two other similar interviews before this, labelled "stewardess"
so those were 2 other stewardesses. They were only short 1 page interviews.

This interview doesn't say "stewardess"

Only Stewardess Flo and Alice (Hancock) were interviewed in Seattle and on the night of the hijacking.  Tina and the flight crew were interviewed in Reno after landing there.  They flew the airliner back to SEATAC the following day but were on a flight to Minneapolis within 10 or 15 minutes after landing.  The three flight crew members and three stewardesses were publicly interviewed in Minneapolis later that evening (Thanksgiving night).

Publicly interviewed? I dunno about that, but the 302s I'm referencing are clearly on 11/25/71 in Minneapolis. Between FBI agent and stews (2 identified as stews).
they are being showing a drawing. That wouldn't be in public.
3 people were shown the drawing and reports written (they were also shown pics of 14 males).
Two are called stewardesses. The 3rd was on the flight but it doesn't say stewardess. It's the longest report. It does say "She was" ...so it seems she's a 3rd female on the flight. On the reports showing the 14 male photogaphs, all 3 interview subjects are called "stewardess"


The 302s in file 19 that I'm referencing were after viewing a facsimile copy of the artist conception of the hijacker, based on information provided early.

There's a lot of dates on them. I think the relevant date was "On 11/25/71 at Minneapolis, Minnesota"

So they were conducted on 11/25/71

These interviews were dictated on 11/28/71 and apparently filed 12/2/71 and stamped 1/8/72
in Minneapolis, Minnesota

There's more 302s that were apparently from the same interview where they were shown pictures of 14 different males. Those were dictated 12/1/71 and filed 12/1/71 and stamped 1/8/72

It seems to me that the 302 I referencd that mentions "balding" and "thinner" hair was Tina Mucklow. Just wanted someone to confirm. It's probably best to refer to the fbi file I mentioned and the surrounding pages to establish context and compare the redacted reports, to decide who is who.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 03:18:47 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7277 on: September 09, 2021, 03:37:51 PM »
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This is a followup the fbi did with one stewardess on description. (they apparently did with all...this is the longest followup..the interviews are all next to each other in the file)

It's FBI file 19 page 67

which stewardess is it? It's the first page of 2 pages. (67 and 68)


It seems to me the comment about thinner hair and balding came from Tina Mucklow. I just wanted someone to confirm it. It's probably better if you look at the fbi file around the pages I mentioned, to get context and discrimination.

She described Cooper as "slightly balding" in the last paragraph.
On the 2nd page of the interview, also attached she said "hair should be thinner"

Is this Mucklow? The length of the interview and detail makes me think Mucklow

There were two other similar interviews before this, labelled "stewardess"
so those were 2 other stewardesses. They were only short 1 page interviews.

This interview doesn't say "stewardess"

Only Stewardess Flo and Alice (Hancock) were interviewed in Seattle and on the night of the hijacking.  Tina and the flight crew were interviewed in Reno after landing there.  They flew the airliner back to SEATAC the following day but were on a flight to Minneapolis within 10 or 15 minutes after landing.  The three flight crew members and three stewardesses were publicly interviewed in Minneapolis later that evening (Thanksgiving night).

Publicly interviewed? I dunno about that, but the 302s I'm referencing are clearly on 11/25/71 in Minneapolis. Between FBI agent and stews (2 identified as stews).
they are being showing a drawing. That wouldn't be in public.
3 people were shown the drawing and reports written (they were also shown pics of 14 males).
Two are called stewardesses. The 3rd was on the flight but it doesn't say stewardess. It's the longest report. It does say "She was" ...so it seems she's a 3rd female on the flight. On the reports showing the 14 male photogaphs, all 3 interview subjects are called "stewardess"


The 302s in file 19 that I'm referencing were after viewing a facsimile copy of the artist conception of the hijacker, based on information provided early.

There's a lot of dates on them. I think the relevant date was "On 11/25/71 at Minneapolis, Minnesota"

So they were conducted on 11/25/71

These interviews were dictated on 11/28/71 and apparently filed 12/2/71 and stamped 1/8/72
in Minneapolis, Minnesota

There's more 302s that were apparently from the same interview where they were shown pictures of 14 different males. Those were dictated 12/1/71 and filed 12/1/71 and stamped 1/8/72

It seems to me that the 302 I referencd that mentions "balding" and "thinner" hair was Tina Mucklow. Just wanted someone to confirm. It's probably best to refer to the fbi file I mentioned and the surrounding pages to establish context and compare the redacted reports, to decide who is who.
The two pages you attached earlier about the interviews stated that they had been interviewed in Seattle.  Only Flo and Alice were interviewed in Seattle.  Pictures of the public press conference in Minneapolis on the evening of November 25th (Thanksgiving evening) with all three flight crew and three stewardesses present may be here on Shutter's site.  Alice Hancock may have been referred to as the "purser" rather than as a stewardess in the FBI notes.

ADDENDUM:  For Snowmman's benefit.

Snowmman, reference is made to the two pages of FBI 302's that you attached to your post #7271 above.   Particular reference is made to the first page "FBI_19_pages67.png", with "DB Cooper - 5922" in the lower right-hand corner. 

In the second paragraph of that first page, the statement is made that the person being interviewed had been previously interviewed by the FBI in Seattle.  The cited 302 describes an interview that was conducted by two FBI agents in Minneapolis on November 25 (Thanksgiving Day).  They dictated the 302 on November 28th (Sunday) and the 302 was typed on December 2nd (Thursday).

Flo and Alice were interviewed by the FBI in Seattle immediately following their release from the aircraft on the evening of November 24th (Wednesday).  They were probably interviewed while the airliner was still airborne enroute to Reno.  Tina was interviewed in Reno but not in Seattle. 

When the airliner and the flight crew and Tina returned to Seattle on November 25th (Thanksgiving Day) they were immediately (within 10 or 15 minutes) aboard another NWA flight (that had been held for them) and enroute to Minneapolis.  George Harrison comments on how he got them headed to Minneapolis so fast and without talking to the media or anyone else in Seattle.

I don't specifically remember how or when Flo and Alice returned to Minneapolis.  But they may have returned earlier on November 25th (Thanksgiving Day).  But the entire flight crew and all three stews were present at a public news conference in Minneapolis on the evening of Thanksgiving Day.  The 302 you cited could have been conducted with either Flo or Alice prior to that news conference if they had returned earlier.   
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 05:22:38 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7278 on: September 09, 2021, 03:50:10 PM »
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The two pages you attached earlier about the interviews stated that they had been interviewed in Seattle.  Only Flo and Alice were interviewed in Seattle.  Pictures of the public press conference in Minneapolis on the evening of November 25th (Thanksgiving evening) with all three flight crew and three stewardesses present may be here on Shutter's site.  Alice Hancock may have been referred to as the "purser" rather than as a stewardess in the FBI notes.


Sorry, I don't see where it says the interviews were in Seattle.
At the bottom it says "On 11/25/71 at Minneapolis, Minnesota"...

 I don't see anyone referred to as "purser" in these 302s.

In the 302 I'm asking about...it says

"She was <long redaction> to Northwest Airlines Flight 305"
It does say "telephone<redacted> informed as follows"

maybe it was a phone interview and they had faxed a drawing?
Maybe it wasn't mucklow.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7279 on: September 09, 2021, 05:26:09 PM »
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The two pages you attached earlier about the interviews stated that they had been interviewed in Seattle.  Only Flo and Alice were interviewed in Seattle.  Pictures of the public press conference in Minneapolis on the evening of November 25th (Thanksgiving evening) with all three flight crew and three stewardesses present may be here on Shutter's site.  Alice Hancock may have been referred to as the "purser" rather than as a stewardess in the FBI notes.


Sorry, I don't see where it says the interviews were in Seattle.
At the bottom it says "On 11/25/71 at Minneapolis, Minnesota"...

 I don't see anyone referred to as "purser" in these 302s.

In the 302 I'm asking about...it says

"She was <long redaction> to Northwest Airlines Flight 305"
It does say "telephone<redacted> informed as follows"

maybe it was a phone interview and they had faxed a drawing?
Maybe it wasn't mucklow.

Snowmman, see my addendum to my previous post just above your post.  Alice was the purser on the hijacked flight even if the term doesn't appear in the redacted version of the 302 you cited.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7280 on: September 09, 2021, 05:30:14 PM »
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Snowmman, see my addendum to my previous post just above your post.  Alice was the purser on the hijacked flight even if the term doesn't appear in the redacted version of the 302 you cited.

okay, thanks
assuming it was her, it's odd that she's the only one to use the words "balding" and "thinner" hair.

And it's odd that she gave the longest reaction to being shown the drawing, the other two were kind of short.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7281 on: September 09, 2021, 05:33:36 PM »
How old was Mrs. Alice Hancock in 1971? I've found 22 and 23 for the other two, but no age on here.
wonder if she could have been more perceptive about an older man's looks.

millenial today: "Boomers? they all look the same to me"

EDIT: apparently Alice Hancock was married in 1971? Hmm.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 05:35:18 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7282 on: September 09, 2021, 05:50:03 PM »
Hancock evidently saw Cooper later in the flight also.
Was wondering from what time period all her information came
In her interview (reading the Gray/True Ink unredacted report pages, page 36)

it says

"At one point during the hijacking, Mrs. Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes that had been brought on board had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied Yes."
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 05:50:40 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7283 on: September 09, 2021, 05:54:09 PM »
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How old was Mrs. Alice Hancock in 1971? I've found 22 and 23 for the other two, but no age on here.
wonder if she could have been more perceptive about an older man's looks.

millenial today: "Boomers? they all look the same to me"

EDIT: apparently Alice Hancock was married in 1971? Hmm.

Alice was probably not more than 24 or 25 years old at most.  In 1971, being a flight attendant was not a career.   
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7284 on: September 09, 2021, 06:06:05 PM »
Jack Trendall, Head Office, Security Officer, Seattle-First National Bank, seems to say stuff that makes me think the bills were strapped in 100 note packets


"Mr Trendall provided a list of serial numbers of $20 totaling $30,000 worth of notes, which although they were on the microfilm itself, were not part of the $200,000 worth of $20 bills which the hijacker received. Trendall states that the bank packs $2000 worth of $20 bills in packages of $100. Each packet there contains $2000 worth of $20 bills.

Trendall provided the first and last serial number in each of these $20 bill packets and advised we should subtract both of these numbers, as well as the 98 serials numbers between each of these groups of numbers in order to determine the actual serial numbers of the bills which the hijacker received"


also, on page 60 it says

"The entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank, and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills"


goes on to say how the ransom money was $250,000. Using only $20 bills, it was $230,000, and $200,00 of that was what Cooper got. And the original microfilm was of all $250,000


I really don't understand how all of this got jumbled up to say individual bills were randomly assembled into packets (and microfilmed in the order they were assembled) that evening.

It seems clear that they were microfilmed at some prior date, and I'll accept the micofilm order and order within packets matched

And using that order/microfilm they were able to deduce the amount of money found on Tena Bar and that it matched the order delivered to cooper.

Otherwise they would have had to microfilm that evening? which makes no sense for 10000 bills being done one at a time. The process was described before, and it was one at a time. Correct.

Flyjack may want to lecture me about this propagation of this line of thinking...
but I remember going back and forth with Carr on this a long time ago, because his assertion of randomization and micofilming that night made no sense (and the "bank bands" report was known at some time)

we do have more unredacted info though, from Geoffrey Gray etc now. so that's good.

It's hard to see how anyone could believe in "rubber bands only" on bills delivered to Cooper.

There's nothing that supports that. The stronger support is strapped, and possible rubber bands.

The rubber bands are supported only the Ingrams testimony on the Tena Bar money.

I think everything I say above is supported by files.
Anything Carr said should be discounted as hearsay. He had no "secret info"

Remember: if they had truly re-randomized the order of individual bills, into random-sized "packets"...they would have had to re-microfilm (or at least note by hand) the order of those bills, in order to have the info they seem to have used in 1980.


EDIT: the simplest thing to exclude, to make everything make more sense, is to say the Ingrams never saw rubber bands. Since that has the weakest support, it would make sense to ignore that testimony. Why ignore the strong testimony and support the weak testimony?

EDIT: I just noticed that I posted images of the unredacted FBI reports without any "True Ink" watermark. Obviously that's not possibly unless I was sitting in the FBI office and had access to the reports. Which is obviously not true. Also not "true ink". :)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 06:21:25 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7285 on: September 09, 2021, 07:40:43 PM »
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How old was Mrs. Alice Hancock in 1971? I've found 22 and 23 for the other two, but no age on here.
wonder if she could have been more perceptive about an older man's looks.

millenial today: "Boomers? they all look the same to me"

EDIT: apparently Alice Hancock was married in 1971? Hmm.

Alice was probably not more than 24 or 25 years old at most.  In 1971, being a flight attendant was not a career.   

I'll have to get her age. News articles gave age of other rwo, but not her. Strange.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7286 on: September 10, 2021, 02:22:43 AM »
I forwarded some info to Bruce on who/where Alice Hancock is. Hopefully I'm right.
still alive.

I don't think Alice has been interviewed? has she?
Lower profile than Tina.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7287 on: September 10, 2021, 11:43:42 AM »
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I forwarded some info to Bruce on who/where Alice Hancock is. Hopefully I'm right.
still alive.

I don't think Alice has been interviewed? has she?
Lower profile than Tina.

Alice was interviewed in Seattle on the evening of the hijacking and the FBI 302 of that interview is somewhere in the files here on Shutter's site.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7288 on: September 10, 2021, 11:52:13 AM »
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I forwarded some info to Bruce on who/where Alice Hancock is. Hopefully I'm right.
still alive.

I don't think Alice has been interviewed? has she?
Lower profile than Tina.
Alice was interviewed in Seattle on the evening of the hijacking and the FBI 302 of that interview is somewhere in the files here on Shutter's site.
I meant by not-FBI in the intervening 50 years.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 11:53:09 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7289 on: September 11, 2021, 05:28:32 PM »
I spoke with Alice  about five years ago. The conversation was very brief, and after I introduced myself as a journalist working on the DB Cooper case, she sighed and said, "it'll take just oo much time to get you up to speed.." and as her voice trailed off he hung up.

I mailed her a copy of my book shortly thereafter, but she never responded.

Galen has spoken to her numerous times, and Alice assisted him in trying to make contact with Tina, circa 2011, but the letter Alice wrote went unanswered by Tina. In response to Tina's non-response, Galen sent a certified, registered letter to Tina that also went unanswered, but apparently ended up in the possession of Lee Dormuth, who referenced it when I spoke with him circa 2012 in Shelton, WA.