Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1784658 times)

snowmman · « **Reply #7200 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:31:16 AM »

EDIT: fixed typo in urls

I compared the current for-sale ebay PCGS bills to the list that I culled from Heritage Auction.
They are bills that don't appear on Heritage Auction
So they are "new to me" bills.

Only one has an identifiable serial. But the fragments seem new also, from their PCGS number

The two without serials have a PCGS number on back

1)

80115718 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

# PCGS listed this serial as XX139558X. That seems to be wrong. doesn't even have 10 places! (just 9)
# I think their 1 is wrong (should be 7) and they are missing a leading X
# most likely it is L58739558B

This is interesting, because it would be a new serial from Tena Bar, not on flyjack's list: L58739558B

How I decided on that
if I look for 9558 (the most obvious numbers). I get these choices.
L09558235A 1969 169 52 C
L19558826A 1969 171 03 C
L58739558B 1963A 189 10 B

2)
80115713 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This fragment is a "new to me" PCGS number in first column (not in HA auction photos)

3)
L75500928B 1963A You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Flyjack provided a list of 80 serials that he believes were found/shown from Tena Bar.
This bill with a serial is on that list. L75500928B

Interesting that it wasn't part of the original Heritage Auction?? I wonder how it got in play.

Background:
fragments without serials, just PCGS numbers

here's the list of fragments at ha.com without serials, with their PCGS numbers
# pcgs numbers on back, instead of serial
80115720 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115726 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115714 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115712 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115716 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115728 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115723 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115719 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115725 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
80115727 xxxx You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

snowmman · « **Reply #7201 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:53:22 AM »

I sent the ebay seller a note, because it's the first time I've seen PCGS provide wrong info per serial.

PCGS certified that note with 9 placeholders in the serial, not 10
XX139558X
That seems wrong as the serial should be letter, then 8 numbers then letter.

I've searched the entire list of known serials.
It seems most like the correct serial for that fragment is
L58739558B 1963A

There is no serial with 139558 in it. Which is the most likely reason PCGS couldn't come up with a better serial match. But why would they put the 1 in there, if 1 is not a possible good serial, and it's not very clear that the fragment of a number is a 1?
It seems like it could be a 7.

Can you provide a close up picture of the serial, especially the 1 vs 7?

I attached a snippet from the fbi ransom list distributed in 1971, You can see the L58 739 558B 63A serial on it.

Also: you might pass this note to PCGS about this fragment and see what they say (especially about their incorrect 9 place serial)
If they agree with my assessment, having a known serial attached to the fragment (rather than the incorrect partial serial, which doesn't exist in the ransom list) might increase it's value.

On the other hand, if they really think their partial serial is correct (the 1) then that's even stranger, since the partial is not in the FBI ransom list. You might get them to attest to their belief of a partial serial not in the FBI ransom list then, which is unlikely to be true.

PCGS # 80115718
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Robert99 · « **Reply #7202 on:** September 06, 2021, 01:06:58 PM »

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Snowmman, one of the people mentioned in your posts above is on this thread and has been in touch with a number of people here, probably including yourself and 377. I strongly suspect that there will be some information available soon, maybe before the end of this month, that will be the booster shot that moves the Cooper investigation a long way down the road. This individual has done his homework!

okay.
What might be the info focused on?
flight path, tena bar, probable jump location, tena bar bills/rubber band decomposition, knowledge of 727, knowledge of prior 727 jumps, tie evidence (titanium, tobacoo resideue etc), tie clip evidence, smoking, bourbon, skydiving experience, speech used, physical description of cooper, selection of the alias "dan cooper", knowledge of tacoma etc, knowledge of 727 flaps etc, knowledge of filing flight path,

??

We all will just have to be patient for a bit longer.

and a bit longer after that! and a bit longer after that! and a bit longer after that! and a bit longer after that! ... Josh Gates & Company ...Discovery+ Channel summer 2036. Subscribe today.

This doesn't have anything to do with Gates.

Regardless you have been promising The Final Solution for years. So far . . . where are The MEATS! ?

Baloney! I have NEVER promised ANY solution. Nor have I even suggested that a solution is possible as long as the FBI refuses to release the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

snowmman · « **Reply #7203 on:** September 06, 2021, 01:33:50 PM »

in terms of what the FBI has or hasn't released, I'd like the FBI to release the ordered list from the recordak showing the bills before they were delivered to cooper.

Not the sorted FBI list that we have.

also, release the methodology used to determine the approx. # of bills found on Tena Bar, along with the methodology used for announcing they were in the same order as delivered to Cooper.

If they were truly in the same order as delivered to Cooper, I think we wouldn't have to have the endless debate about rubber bands. We'd know that the bills were not repackaged. At least not re-ordered.

And we'd be able to determine if the notes actually came from 3 packets delivered to Cooper (not 1,2,3 or 4 packets)

snowmman · « **Reply #7204 on:** September 06, 2021, 01:52:14 PM »

Was looking at old mail.

Sheridan could be absolutely maddening, trying to decipher if he was just a cranky old man, or what. Why couldn't he just be straightforward?

I was pressing him on whether any characters in his book smoked, since I saw stats saying that in the mid-60s, for US males over the age of 17, more than 50% smoked. For US males aged 35 to 44, it goes up to say 59% current smokers in 1966.

so I would expect it's reasonable that one or both of the characters in the book were smokers? (the two characters that were Sheridan, specifically, but I figured he wouldn't answer a more direct question like that)

I mean it seems like it would be a coin toss.

So Sheridan replies:

Yea, the Kiwi smoked. Suffered for it.

My manuscript is over 600 pages mate.

Sheridan

Now that seems innocuous. There is a new zealander in the book (a "Kiwi") . But it's the only time Sheridan called me "mate"...which is a term used by new zealanders.

My mind spun on whether Sheridan was being self-referential with "Kiwi" and "mate"

from the web:
' The phrase 'Good on ya, mate' was popularised by a series of commercials for the New Zealand beer Speight's. It means 'well done' or 'I approve'. The word 'mate' is like 'bro' in that it is used mostly by males to describe other males even if they've never met them before, except 'mate' is more used by white guys.'

When did Australians start saying mate?
Although it had a very detailed entry in the first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (the letter M was completed 1904–8), the Australian National Dictionary (AND) included mate in its first edition of 1988, thus marking it as an Australianism.

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The heavily ironic Australian use of mate is enshrined in a famous quotation from Australian political history. In 1983, Labor Party leader Bill Hayden recalled a moment when there were rumours that he was to be dumped as leader, and a colleague comforted him ‘Oh, mate, mate’. Hayden commented: ‘When they call you “mate” in the N.S.W. Labor Party it is like getting a kiss from the Mafia.’

Although possibly not exclusively Australian, this ironic and sometimes hostile use of mate is certainly more common in Australia than elsewhere.

snowmman · « **Reply #7205 on:** September 06, 2021, 02:05:23 PM »

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Power and control is somewhat like heroin, once you have had a taste of it, you want more. The more you have, the more you need to be satisfied. For some, it can become an addiction. When it is denied, the addicted can lose impulse control and become hostile. It is apparent from the info released to the public that he was most comfortable when he had power and was in control. He articulated that there would be no tolerance to him being toyed with, no “funny stuff”. An example of his impulse control failing is the gruff tone taken with the refueling delays, his calm demeanor was undermined by a perceived threat to his successful completion of his operational plan, being denied power and control.

This could be applied to possible behaviors to be on the lookout for that he may have exhibited within a community before and after the event. He would likely be an individual who people may describe as being “controlling” and “easily angered” when he “did not get his way”. He may also boldly invest much effort into bringing people around to his way of thinking. He may manipulate thoughts and opinions of associates by trying to convince vs. merely conveying information. People who questioned his point of view and authority or vetted his claims of fact could be witness to his predatory anger and vindictive retaliation. Documentation may exist that demonstrates a long standing pattern to this behavior.

Some people have a hard time hiding that they have something to hide.

Was just reading old posts here. I thought Prospector had a good point here. Sure it's all speculative, but it feels right to me.

snowmman · « **Reply #7206 on:** September 06, 2021, 02:10:58 PM »

I was studying Tom Kaye's particles on the tie.

I think Tom overlooked one possibility for titanium dioxide when he was speculating about pill usage

titanium dioxide is used for fingerprint powder on dark materials.

Was the tie fingerprinted by FBI? If so, fingerprint powder residue would be there. Surprised Tom Kaye didn't at least discuss the possibility?

Titanium dioxide based powders are regularly used in the development of latent fingerprints on dark surfaces. ... Analytical transmission electron microscopy (TEM) of the fingerprint powder shows TiO2 particles with a surrounding coating, tens of nanometres thick, consisting of Al and Si rich material.

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Interestingly, lycopodium powder (Kaye found lycopodium) was also "historically" used for fingerprint powder.
Don't know about 1971 though.

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Historically, Lycopodium powder, the spores of Lycopodium and related plants, was used as a fingerprint powder....
Examples of materials
Aluminum
Bronze
Cupric oxide
Iron
Titanium dioxide
Graphite
Magnetic
Fluorescent
These are all examples of fingerprint powders used to reveal fingerprint smudges, with the more common powders being Aluminum powder as it will show up on a variety of surfaces.

I wonder if Tom Kaye's speculation about medicines might be more easily explained??
Fingerprint power could have been mixed with stuff like bismuth

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Ingredients in Fingerprinting Powder
Lanconide, another white powder, is made from zinc sulfide, zinc oxide, barium sulfate, titanium dioxide, bismuth oxychloride and calcium

snowmman · « **Reply #7207 on:** September 06, 2021, 02:43:06 PM »

We need to break into the Seattle FBI office, like they did in Mar. 1971 in Philadelphia.
Pretty cool they pulled this off. Details are interesting.

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They were never caught, and the stolen documents that they mailed anonymously to newspaper reporters were the first trickle of what would become a flood of revelations about extensive spying and dirty-tricks operations by the F.B.I. against dissident groups.

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The Citizens' Commission to Investigate the FBI was an activist group operational in the US during the early 1970s. Their only known action was breaking into a two-man Media, Pennsylvania, office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and stealing over 1,000 classified documents. They then mailed these documents anonymously to several US newspapers to expose numerous illegal FBI operations which were infringing on the First Amendment rights of American civilians. Most news outlets initially refused to publish the information, saying it related to ongoing operations and that disclosure might have threatened the lives of agents or informants. However, The Washington Post, after affirming the veracity of the files which the Commission sent them, ran a front-page story on March 24, 1971, at which point other media organizations followed suit.

"The complete collection of political documents ripped off from the F.B.I. office in Media, Pa., March 8, 1971" was published for the first time as the March 1972 issue of WIN Magazine, a journal associated with the War Resisters League. The documents revealed the COINTELPRO operation, and led to the Church Committee and the cessation of this operation by the FBI.

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What they found uncovered a nationwide program of illegal surveillance and harassment, which in turn led to the discovery of J. Edgar Hoover’s invasive COINTELPRO operation, congressional hearings and ultimately oversight of the FBI after it had operated autonomously for decades and openly referred to its headquarters as “the Seat of Government.”

snowmman · « **Reply #7208 on:** September 06, 2021, 03:13:22 PM »

Was thinking about the Heisson store burgulary report 11/24/71 and the fbi report saying "military type boots with a corrugated sole"

Note sure how they determined "military style boot"

Assuming they saw footprints in dirt/mud?
in any case, dudeman17 can you comment on the French jump boots in use by US jumpers in 60s/70s then.

I believe there were boots with thinner soles for "style" jumps ??

(map included to show the Heisson store was about 10 miles south of Merwin Dam)

Interesting gloves were taken. What about hat or jacket? Did they sell other clothing besides gloves, then?
If it was a hobo break-in, why wasn't liquor taken? I would think they minimally would have beer?
Strange to me that liquor wasn't mentioned. Weird the FBI agent summarized it as "survival" stuff.

Wanted to show a type of "corrugated" sole on French jump boots then. I wonder what the FBI agent meant by "corrugated"
also from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The so-called French boots (they were made in France) were a must-have item for the serious jumper.

Paraboots, selling at $29.50 a pair in 1970, were available in two styles. The “accuracy” version (pictured) had a thicker, cushioned sole to absorb vertical impact. The “style” model was a slightly lighter looking boot with a thinner sole. You’ve got to wonder why though – arriving on the ground under an old round canopy was just as hard, whether you’d just done a style set or not.

Both boots featured excellent ankle support – and they looked a hell of a lot cooler than the army surplus stuff otherwise in use.

snowmman · « **Reply #7209 on:** September 06, 2021, 03:21:21 PM »

some nice pics of French jump boots from the '70s

i guess made by Paraboot. A French company. They also did Galibier I believe. I remember I had a couple of pair of Galibier boots back in the day.

The sole patterns would be pretty unique.

georger · « **Reply #7210 on:** September 06, 2021, 03:25:45 PM »

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I was studying Tom Kaye's particles on the tie.

I think Tom overlooked one possibility for titanium dioxide when he was speculating about pill usage

titanium dioxide is used for fingerprint powder on dark materials.

Was the tie fingerprinted by FBI? If so, fingerprint powder residue would be there. Surprised Tom Kaye didn't at least discuss the possibility?

Titanium dioxide based powders are regularly used in the development of latent fingerprints on dark surfaces. ... Analytical transmission electron microscopy (TEM) of the fingerprint powder shows TiO2 particles with a surrounding coating, tens of nanometres thick, consisting of Al and Si rich material.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Interestingly, lycopodium powder (Kaye found lycopodium) was also "historically" used for fingerprint powder.
Don't know about 1971 though.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Historically, Lycopodium powder, the spores of Lycopodium and related plants, was used as a fingerprint powder....
Examples of materials
Aluminum
Bronze
Cupric oxide
Iron
Titanium dioxide
Graphite
Magnetic
Fluorescent
These are all examples of fingerprint powders used to reveal fingerprint smudges, with the more common powders being Aluminum powder as it will show up on a variety of surfaces.

I wonder if Tom Kaye's speculation about medicines might be more easily explained??
Fingerprint power could have been mixed with stuff like bismuth

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ingredients in Fingerprinting Powder
Lanconide, another white powder, is made from zinc sulfide, zinc oxide, barium sulfate, titanium dioxide, bismuth oxychloride and calcium

Somebody was 'finger print happy' imho. Finger printing things that normally would not be finger printed - to an extreme. Its pretty hard to pull a finger print off water and moose dung ... its crazy on its face. But the Lab must do what they are asked to do! Maybe they should have finger printed the sand at Tena Bar ?

Good find.

georger · « **Reply #7211 on:** September 06, 2021, 03:37:32 PM »

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Snowmman, one of the people mentioned in your posts above is on this thread and has been in touch with a number of people here, probably including yourself and 377. I strongly suspect that there will be some information available soon, maybe before the end of this month, that will be the booster shot that moves the Cooper investigation a long way down the road. This individual has done his homework!

okay.
What might be the info focused on?
flight path, tena bar, probable jump location, tena bar bills/rubber band decomposition, knowledge of 727, knowledge of prior 727 jumps, tie evidence (titanium, tobacoo resideue etc), tie clip evidence, smoking, bourbon, skydiving experience, speech used, physical description of cooper, selection of the alias "dan cooper", knowledge of tacoma etc, knowledge of 727 flaps etc, knowledge of filing flight path,

??

We all will just have to be patient for a bit longer.

and a bit longer after that! and a bit longer after that! and a bit longer after that! and a bit longer after that! ... Josh Gates & Company ...Discovery+ Channel summer 2036. Subscribe today.

This doesn't have anything to do with Gates.

Regardless you have been promising The Final Solution for years. So far . . . where are The MEATS! ?

Baloney! I have NEVER promised ANY solution. Nor have I even suggested that a solution is possible as long as the FBI refuses to release the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

I have no idea. Straighten it out with your press agent.

The original west path pre- Robt Nicholson. Remember this ?

georger · « **Reply #7212 on:** September 06, 2021, 03:46:24 PM »

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Was thinking about the Heisson store burgulary report 11/24/71 and the fbi report saying "military type boots with a corrugated sole"

Note sure how they determined "military style boot"

Assuming they saw footprints in dirt/mud?
in any case, dudeman17 can you comment on the French jump boots in use by US jumpers in 60s/70s then.

I believe there were boots with thinner soles for "style" jumps ??

(map included to show the Heisson store was about 10 miles south of Merwin Dam)

Interesting gloves were taken. What about hat or jacket? Did they sell other clothing besides gloves, then?
If it was a hobo break-in, why wasn't liquor taken? I would think they minimally would have beer?
Strange to me that liquor wasn't mentioned. Weird the FBI agent summarized it as "survival" stuff.

Wanted to show a type of "corrugated" sole on French jump boots then. I wonder what the FBI agent meant by "corrugated"
also from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The so-called French boots (they were made in France) were a must-have item for the serious jumper.

Paraboots, selling at $29.50 a pair in 1970, were available in two styles. The “accuracy” version (pictured) had a thicker, cushioned sole to absorb vertical impact. The “style” model was a slightly lighter looking boot with a thinner sole. You’ve got to wonder why though – arriving on the ground under an old round canopy was just as hard, whether you’d just done a style set or not.

Both boots featured excellent ankle support – and they looked a hell of a lot cooler than the army surplus stuff otherwise in use.

In the opinion of many people, if Cooper followed the rail track back to Vancouver, following a burglary at the Heisson store, he ran a high risk of running into others also using the rail lines to travel, held up in hobo encampments on the north edge of Vancouver ...

There are photos of some of these hobo encampments at Vancouver in the 70s.

snowmman · « **Reply #7213 on:** September 06, 2021, 04:19:39 PM »

Even if Cooper ran into someone on the rail lines, so what?

did the fbi interview anyone that would have been on the rail lines? no
would anyone on the rail lines assume anything if they ran into someone that night or day?
during the night, hobos would be sleeping, anyhow.

if anyone ran into Cooper on the rail line, they would think nothing of it.
the assumption that such a run-in would mean someone would have reported something to the fbi, seems like a silly assumption.

In my experience, when walking in the dark at night, if you encounter some other random person, you steer clear and don't stop to have a conversation.

In pitch black, you're not going to interact with a random stranger who may have intentions to rob you or ??

the wariness would go both ways.

Even today, homeless have some kind of weapon handy. I remember giving a hitchhiking homeless guy a ride, and he talked about how he just got out of jail, and how he got in a fight the prior night. Pointed to the hatchet on his pack as his defensive weapon, which got me wondering about whether I made a bad decision

I think people who worry about whether Cooper ran into anyone, maybe are too used to travelling in circles of law-abiding people

snowmman · « **Reply #7214 on:** September 06, 2021, 04:28:26 PM »

a "corrugated" sole is definitely a different description than the more common "waffle print" military sole.

Corrugated is like a "corrugated" road back in history. Or a corrugated roof

repeated lines..not a waffle print.

What military boots were "corrugated" ?? why did he call them military boots?
EDIT: I guess "corrugated" was used to describe a number of combat boots..although I would call the pattern more "waffle" than "corrugated"

I guess it depends on what the person reporting the print? thought in terms of description. So it's unclear.

Why would a hobo be wearing a military boot?

I would think that would also point away from "homeless"

Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1784658 times)

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

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snowmman

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snowmman

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snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

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georger

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georger

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georger

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snowmman

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snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case