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Kaye's analysis seems more reasonable to me, prima facie. I wish I knew more about the Palmer report though.

To me, Palmer's conclusions suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. There was a set conclusion, pushed by the FBI agents working the case. The evidence was fit into their narrative, and the result was the now widely discredited Washougal Washdown theory and the Palmer Report. Nothing contradicted the FBI narrative of the find, which affirms said confirmation bias.

And no, I'm sure we'll have this all settled by 2267...

Ask any questions you want about the Palmer report and I will try and answer them ... Larry gave me permission to do this. That is one reason I am still here otherwise I was going to retire with Larry clear back in 2009! I am under the restriction that I cannot "quote directly" from the report. But I am free to talk about it and paraphrase from it.

As with the flight path issue and the flight tests, there was "no set conclusion, pushed by the FBI agents working the case." You have this all ass-back-wards! There were no "conclusions" because there was no "hard information" about anything in this case to form conclusions about!

It was the FBI dependent on others (experts) for advice and facts - not the reverse. And the FBI documents I have seen and the agents I have interviewed reflect this 100%; not the reverse.

In the case of the flight path, flight tests, and in all flight and drop related matters it was the FBI dependent on the US Air Force (McChord), Boeing, NWA and its people, and others .... not the reverse. It was those experts who set the agenda, usually defined the areas of research and data collection, etc., and formed the initial conclusions and set the direction of investigation ... not the reverse. The FBI had no agenda! The FBI was totally dependent on these experts, not the reverse.

And it was exactly the same in the case of the Ingram find and the Tina Bar excavation and in all of those matters. It was a hydrologist and a geologist and a few other experts who brought up the word "Washougal", not anyone at the FBI. Prior to 1980 nobody at the FBI ever uttered the word "Washougal", so far as I know, and there are no documents of newspaper reports, or anything else to suggest otherwise.

So, if it was the FBI pushing all of this 'who at the FBI' are you talking about? Show me a record or a newspaper report that confirms this ?

If you are saying Palmer had a "confirmation bias" show something that proves that? I could easily ask: 'if Palmer was wrong about his strata id's at Tina's Bar was he also wrong about his strata id's during his whole long career'?  Who has more time in the strata ID saddle - Palmer or Kaye!? 

And please understand, I am not defending Palmer vs. Kaye. I just believe you have to take Palmer's work very seriously and examine it as a credible piece of work, and if there are better facts such as Kaye claims to have, then you must have some 'evidence' and a better theory that resolves the discrepancy.

Here's part of the problem. Palmer did no lab work on his strata ID's. Kaye was not there. (Kaye has done no lab work on his strata ID's?) Is there anyone else who worked on identifying strata at or near to Tina's Bar say 1974-1985, who actually did lab work to support the strata they claim to have found there? Did Tom look for such a person, or people, to add foundation to his claims? If he did he doesn't mention it.

So you tell us: 'how is Palmer's work infected by 'confirmation bias' forced on Palmer by the FBI, and who at the FBI did this'? Are you thinking of Himmelsbach? (You may not know Himmelsbach as well as you think!) 

 

Very interesting, Georger.

Question -- did Tom  Kaye have access to the Palmer Report, as well?   That makes a big difference if his findings were totally independent.  I'm still not sure what Tom says contradicts the Palmer Report or in some nuanced way extends it.

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This is a good case, or reason to have this documented, and accessed on the new website. this discussion will be buried in a month. I'm sure you could write a full page, with photo's on the website that can be easily accessed and pasted here when needed. helps with the term "read the thread"

well... I am working on something that might be valuable in such an archive, so let me read some more tonight then make a fresh coffee  and get on with my evening..

You seemed a little skeptical about creating a website? I think it would help in many ways. nothing can be written over on the site, or lost unless we change something, but the information can be right at our fingertips without searching things out.

no Im not skeptical. Actually I dont have an opinion about it, either way.

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Kaye's analysis seems more reasonable to me, prima facie. I wish I knew more about the Palmer report though.

To me, Palmer's conclusions suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. There was a set conclusion, pushed by the FBI agents working the case. The evidence was fit into their narrative, and the result was the now widely discredited Washougal Washdown theory and the Palmer Report. Nothing contradicted the FBI narrative of the find, which affirms said confirmation bias.

And no, I'm sure we'll have this all settled by 2267...

Ask any questions you want about the Palmer report and I will try and answer them ... Larry gave me permission to do this. That is one reason I am still here otherwise I was going to retire with Larry clear back in 2009! I am under the restriction that I cannot "quote directly" from the report. But I am free to talk about it and paraphrase from it.

As with the flight path issue and the flight tests, there was "no set conclusion, pushed by the FBI agents working the case." You have this all ass-back-wards! There were no "conclusions" because there was no "hard information" about anything in this case to form conclusions about!

It was the FBI dependent on others (experts) for advice and facts - not the reverse. And the FBI documents I have seen and the agents I have interviewed reflect this 100%; not the reverse.

In the case of the flight path, flight tests, and in all flight and drop related matters it was the FBI dependent on the US Air Force (McChord), Boeing, NWA and its people, and others .... not the reverse. It was those experts who set the agenda, usually defined the areas of research and data collection, etc., and formed the initial conclusions and set the direction of investigation ... not the reverse. The FBI had no agenda! The FBI was totally dependent on these experts, not the reverse.

And it was exactly the same in the case of the Ingram find and the Tina Bar excavation and in all of those matters. It was a hydrologist and a geologist and a few other experts who brought up the word "Washougal", not anyone at the FBI. Prior to 1980 nobody at the FBI ever uttered the word "Washougal", so far as I know, and there are no documents of newspaper reports, or anything else to suggest otherwise.

So, if it was the FBI pushing all of this 'who at the FBI' are you talking about? Show me a record or a newspaper report that confirms this ?

If you are saying Palmer had a "confirmation bias" show something that proves that? I could easily ask: 'if Palmer was wrong about his strata id's at Tina's Bar was he also wrong about his strata id's during his whole long career'?  Who has more time in the strata ID saddle - Palmer or Kaye!? 

And please understand, I am not defending Palmer vs. Kaye. I just believe you have to take Palmer's work very seriously and examine it as a credible piece of work, and if there are better facts such as Kaye claims to have, then you must have some 'evidence' and a better theory that resolves the discrepancy.

Here's part of the problem. Palmer did no lab work on his strata ID's. Kaye was not there. (Kaye has done no lab work on his strata ID's?) Is there anyone else who worked on identifying strata at or near to Tina's Bar say 1974-1985, who actually did lab work to support the strata they claim to have found there? Did Tom look for such a person, or people, to add foundation to his claims? If he did he doesn't mention it.

So you tell us: 'how is Palmer's work infected by 'confirmation bias' forced on Palmer by the FBI, and who at the FBI did this'? Are you thinking of Himmelsbach? (You may not know Himmelsbach as well as you think!) 

 

Very interesting, Georger.

Question -- did Tom  Kaye have access to the Palmer Report, as well?   That makes a big difference if his findings were totally independent.  I'm still not sure what Tom says contradicts the Palmer Report or in some nuanced way extends it.

Yes, Tom and I and several others were given FBI reports by Ckret. All at the same time. That included the Palmer report. At the time we all constituted the CS team. It was me that recommended Tom Kaye to Ckret. Tom received three Cooper bills to start the analysis. All of this is in the records at DZ.
 

Someone is claiming 'Mucklow told Cooper she lived in Minnesota and Cooper responded: "Nice Country"!

Is that true? Where is that in the Transcripts or anywhere else?

Yes, I believe that's true. I have her old apartment on my computer that had the hard drive go out. I forget the source, but I read it, and it had an address with her old apartment. nothing was verified through the address though. It was a couple years back I think.....

The part about her living in Minnesota is the only part I have read. nothing about her telling Cooper that....

Interesting. But who was the remote viewer?

I'm doubling-down on my remote viewing. Published the chapter as a free-standing article at the MN.

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I've also sent it off to NEXUS magazine and Superconsciousness Magazine.

Dave, you are destined for Vegas.

Interesting. But who was the remote viewer?

I'm doubling-down on my remote viewing. Published the chapter as a free-standing article at the MN.

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I've also sent it off to NEXUS magazine and Superconsciousness Magazine.

Dr. Douglas James Cottrell