Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1559146 times)

snowmman · « **Reply #7155 on:** September 03, 2021, 04:39:52 PM »

7th page 168 anomaly

FLYJACK has reported that
L04461895* 1963A

was part of the Ingram find, based on his analysis of photos that are available online.
I've not found this bill as part of the auctioned set.

Assuming FLYJACK's analysis is correct here (it's shown in a post elsewhere.. then that makes 7 bills out of 300 on one FBI page, that were found on Tena Bar.

the FLYJACK post with that serial above is on
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so this is all very strange.

EDIT: I suppose the strangeness is because we don't have a full list of serials that were found on Tena Bar.
We have a list of about 60 numbers. FLYJACK may have expanded that list from his original 60

60 serials and 34 pages in the FBI ransom list.

it's odd that 7 of the 60 serials are on the same FBI page.

If we had like 340 serials known from Tena Bar, then maybe it wouldn't be so odd to have 7-10 serials on the same FBI page.

But if we had more known serials, then the max number on a signal page could go up further? All we know, is that using 60 known serials, 7 are on one page.

snowmman · « **Reply #7156 on:** September 03, 2021, 05:24:28 PM »

I have found 4 (apparently not previously known) Ingram find serial numbers in the FBI files

I have not found them in the FLYJACK list or anywhere else on the web
(I mentioned one as adjacent to a typo, but that was incidental)

These 4 serials were in an evidence examination report in fbi file 44,
pages 4-6

They said "fingerprint examination". I wonder if they could have been subjected to silver nitrate.

I know of no pictures of these bills. Maybe someone can find?

From the fbi report:

Feb 3. 1980
SPECIMEN SERIAL NUMBER

Q60 G03072381B
Q61 L10919321A
Q62 L55066857A
Q63 L32987392A

Result of examination:

Specimens Q60 through Q63 contained mineralogical similar to the Q59 sand previously submitted.

Q60 through Q63 were photographed and the results of the fingerprint examination.

georger · « **Reply #7157 on:** September 03, 2021, 05:51:54 PM »

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Okay. I'm not really interested in this debate.
It seems clear to me that DOD distributes maps to CRAF. And you need the special authorization to get them.

If you want to say there's no such thing that people might refer to in 1971 as "CRAF maps"...that's fine.
We don't need consensus.

Andrare Jr., Please ask Sr. if he has heard of anything described as "CRAF maps" in either a military or civilian context.

I have seen military international flight information publications for the 1971 time frame and they did not have a security restriction. And I have used FAA and Jeppesen maps and publications, all of which could easily be purchased for a few dollars at your local pilot's shop. I have also purchased these maps and other flight information publications within the last few years in connection with the Cooper flight path studies.

My point is that there was no need to provide the NWA 305 crew with any restricted military flight maps or publications since everything they needed was readily available from civilian sources.

Short answer is "no"

However, he suggested you would have to contact someone who actually worked in CRAF to be sure. He never did CRAF work. However, he saw no need for such materials (for 305 that night).

My question is: why would CRAF maps, socalled, even be in the mix of maps/information being given to the crew? Did anyone actually request CRAF maps - I doubt it. I think someone suggested CRAF maps be sent to the crew just in case - just in case of ... what? Or is the mere mention of CRAF maps an outlier, just an anomaly. Like mentioning Ed Sullivan?

We still have nothing, no 302 - nothing - to indicate what "maps" Cooper requested if in fact he requested any maps at all! No stew note or comments about what maps he supposedly asked for. Likewise no comments by the stews about Ed Sullivan either! CRAF and Cooper asking for maps could be an anomaly.

georger · « **Reply #7158 on:** September 03, 2021, 06:01:12 PM »

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I have found 4 (apparently not previously known) Ingram find serial numbers in the FBI files

I have not found them in the FLYJACK list or anywhere else on the web
(I mentioned one as adjacent to a typo, but that was incidental)

These 4 serials were in an evidence examination report in fbi file 44,
pages 4-6

They said "fingerprint examination". I wonder if they could have been subjected to silver nitrate.

I know of no pictures of these bills. Maybe someone can find?

From the fbi report:

Feb 3. 1980
SPECIMEN SERIAL NUMBER

Q60 G03072381B
Q61 L10919321A
Q62 L55066857A
Q63 L32987392A

Result of examination:

Specimens Q60 through Q63 contained mineralogical similar to the Q59 sand previously submitted.

Q60 through Q63 were photographed and the results of the fingerprint examination.

My guess is that first 302 refers to the four separate Ingram bills turned in later by the sister-in-law (name escapes me) after the Ingrams had turned in their groups on ___________ date? Those 4 bills were sent in later for lab analysis separately from the rest of the Ingram bills ... note the 3-2 refers to 'sand sample previously submitted' which refers the first bills submitted by the Ingrams ... btw I have the lab reports ...

snowmman · « **Reply #7159 on:** September 03, 2021, 06:02:58 PM »

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My guess is that first 302 refers to the four separate Ingram bills turned in later by the sister-in-law (name escapes me) after the Ingrams had turned in their groups on ___________ date? Those 4 bills were sent in later for lab analysis separately from the rest of the Ingram bills ...

is there another fbi report (file/page) that has serial numbers?
apologies if this has been gone over before.
but when I search for serial numbers from my list, I hit on all posts to dbcooperforum.com and I did not hit on any of the above serials, so I figured they had not been mentioned.

if you know of any 302's in the fbi files I should check (file/page) that would be nice?

georger · « **Reply #7160 on:** September 03, 2021, 06:06:44 PM »

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My guess is that first 302 refers to the four separate Ingram bills turned in later by the sister-in-law (name escapes me) after the Ingrams had turned in their groups on ___________ date? Those 4 bills were sent in later for lab analysis separately from the rest of the Ingram bills ...

is there another fbi report (file/page) that has serial numbers?
apologies if this has been gone over before.
but when I search for serial numbers from my list, I hit on all posts to dbcooperforum.com and I did not hit on any of the above serials, so I figured they had not been mentioned.

if you know of any 302's in the fbi files I should check (file/page) that would be nice?

I will look - tonight ...

dudeman17 · « **Reply #7161 on:** September 03, 2021, 07:40:57 PM »

Snowmman, I have to say that your level of curiosity and inquisitiveness is astounding. The depth of your research into serial numbers, deep dives into 'craf maps', foxing, Vietnam era parachute clubs, leading to Hector and El Cap, to watching a movie the same day it's mentioned... this all leads to a question - Do you sleep?

Haha, that is all compliment!

-----

To clarify the nature of a 2-way from a 600' building - This would not be swooping together, linking up, then tracking off, like you would see in a skydive. There simply is not the altitude, time, nor airspeed required for that. Rather, it's simply the two of us jumping together side by side. For the camera jump I was referring to, he followed me off by just a hair so that he was behind me a bit. The helmet camera I had was facing backwards, so I turned my head just a bit to get a good shot of him. We preplanned that he would pull first, and I would pull a couple seconds later so that we had vertical separation on opening.

--------

When Sunshine Superman came out in the theaters, a few of us were going to go together to see it, but we couldn't coordinate our schedules, so I went by myself to an afternoon matinee. I was the only one in the theater. When it was over, it took me several minutes to get up and walk out. Some pimply-faced kid who worked there asked me, 'that good, was it?'

"It was to me."

snowmman · « **Reply #7162 on:** September 03, 2021, 08:21:52 PM »

heh...infinite detail possible still, for analyzing the cooper thing. Back in the day, there wasn't as much info..no fbi files. Hardly any info that you could trust. Much better now. I'm always curious about the early days of jumping..the tight culture, how people passed on knowledge about what works, what doesn't etc. It's always interesting to see how a group transforms a risky thing, into a not-so-risky thing.

hey dudeman17

have you seen the video I culled from the Air America promo film back in the day, that showed static line jumpers (humans) going out the back of a modified 727? and also cargo drops? Air America actually used it in a promo film. The testing seems to have been in Thailand. They had modified a 727 and I guess were trying to get a DoD contract, but I don't think the 727 was ever used as configured. Had a sliding tray for boxes to kick out, and the jumpers had a ramp like a kiddy slide they slid down on exit (no aft stair..removed). This was before 1971.

I had it on youtube on another account, I think it got culled

If you haven't seen it, I'll try to dig it up.

interesting squidding of the canopies immediately on exit..the static line opened the canopies right at the rear stairs...canopies ended up almost touching the rear engine ! Once the canopy caught a little air, the jumper shot kind of horizontally for a bit.

377 commented that if Cooper pulled right off the stairs, the opening impact might not have been as high as one might guess, because of the squidding.

snowmman · « **Reply #7163 on:** September 03, 2021, 09:08:02 PM »

Pictures of this note are elusive

G45632911B

It was certified and encapsulated, but it's not at ha.com
I think because it wasn't auctioned. I think it was an arranged sale after the auction between one of the Ingrams and a collector of a lot of cooper bills.

It's a choice example

I love this first pic. I attached both pics from these links, in case anyone searches for this note.

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georger · « **Reply #7164 on:** September 03, 2021, 11:54:46 PM »

My guess is the attached represents results on 4 bills submitted by Crystal Ingram. re- month: March 18 1980 lab report. The late Date, March 80, almost guarantees this has to be an analysis of Crystal Ingram's four bills submitted last after the Ingrams had submitted their bills earlier, which were sent on immediately for Lab work at an earlier date ...

from Files: Harold & Pat Ingram: 9;45 a.m., February 12, 1980, INGRAM appeared and submitted bills, submitted immediately to the lab – Specimen Received by Lab February 14, 1980 consisting of Approximately 290 twenty dollar bills ($5,800.00) are contained in the submitted currency. The disposition of the submitted evidence and the results of the mineralogy and fingerprint examinations requested will be furnished separately as soon as available. Lab conducted only tests requested!

Who separated the Ingram bills and when? Nobody knows!

On February 14, 1980, Mrs. Crystal Ingram appeared at the Portland FBI Office , after making an appointment earlier in the day, and has submitted four (4) more $20 bills, those bills sent in for analysis separately, on 2/20/80.

Portland teletype to Bureau, 2/20/80. Enclosed herewith for the Laboratory are four additional bills from the ransom obtained on 2/14/80, from Mrs. CRYSTAL INGRAM. Same lab analysis requested as the last ... mineralogy and finger print analysis.

snowmman · « **Reply #7165 on:** September 04, 2021, 12:42:15 AM »

I wondered how they determined "Approximately 290 twenty dollar bills ($5,800.00)"

I mean, they could have weighed the mass, assuming no sand. But parts of many bills were missing.

I can't imagine any legit process for estimating the number of bills after Ingram turned them in?

snowmman · « **Reply #7166 on:** September 04, 2021, 12:54:17 AM »

I was pondering the thought I mentioned "Did the FBI know the sequence of the bills given to Cooper"

I've heard people suggest "yes" and "no"

I just found this in the fbi files. This seems to suggest they knew the expected number sequence. But I find that hard to believe. They would have compared to a numbered sequence from the original microfilm? I wonder if the FBI guy writing this, just made this up. What he means by PACKAGING is also unclear and possibly made up (did he think there were just rubber bands? or

) It wasn't well documented, so how could he know?

This seems like they were trying to make up a story, rather than analyze anything. I would have thought the FBI lab would have gotten involved if sequence was being verified.

"THE PACKAGING AND THE NUMBERED SEQUENCE INDICATE THAT THE BILLS HAVE NOT BEEN SEPARATED AND ARE IN MUCH THE SAME ORDER AS WHEN GIVEN TO THE HIJACKER."

DB Cooper-902

ON THAT DATE WHILE ON AN OUTING WITH THEIR CHILDREN, MR.
AND MRS. HAROLD DWAYNE INGRAM OF VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, DISCOVERED
A SUM OF MONEY PARTIALLY BURIED BY SAND IN THE NORTH RIVER BANK
OF THE COLUMBIA RIVER, APPROXIMATELY FIVE MILES DOWN RIVER FROM
THE U.S. INTERSTATE 5 BRIDGE CROSSING BETWEEN PORTLAND AND
VAjCOUVER, WASHINGTON. THE INGRAMS CONTACTED THE FBI AND AN
EXAMINATION OF THE BADLY DECOMPOSED $20 BILLS REVEALS THAT THEY
BEAR SERIAL NUMBERS IDENTICAL TO A PORTION OF THOSE GIVEN TO
THE HIJACKER, BECAUSE OF THE DECOMPOSED NATURE OF THE BILLS
AN EXACT ESTIMATE OF THE RECOVERED MONEY IS NOT POSSIBLE PENDING
A LABORATORY EXAMINATION, HOWEVER, IT APPEARS TO BE SEVERAL
THOUSAND DOLLARS. THE PACKAGING AND THE NUMBERED SEQUENCE
INDICATE THAT THE BILLS HAVE NOT BEEN SEPARATED AND ARE IN
MUCH THE SAME ORDER AS WHEN GIVEN TO THE HIJACKER. THE BILLS
WILL BE SENT IMMEDIATELY TO THE FBI LABORATORY FOR ADDITIONAL
EXAMINATION.

IT APPEARS LOGICAL THAT THE PACKAGE OF BILLS COULD HAVE
BEJN CARRIED DOWNSTREAM ON ONE OF THE WASHINGTON TRIBUTARIES OF
THE COLUMBIA RIVER TO THE SITE WHERE THEY WERE FOUND.

SPECIAL AGENTS OF THE FBI FROM OREGON AND WASHINGTON HAVE
SECURED THE AREA AND COMMENCED AN INTENSIVE SEARCH.

georger · « **Reply #7167 on:** September 04, 2021, 01:21:58 AM »

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I wondered how they determined "Approximately 290 twenty dollar bills ($5,800.00)"

I mean, they could have weighed the mass, assuming no sand. But parts of many bills were missing.

I can't imagine any legit process for estimating the number of bills after Ingram turned them in?

I guess they made note of and counted serial numbers on Ingram bills\fragments ? How else could it be ? But who did this - the Lab ? Who else would be qualified to make such a count with any reliability ? But there are no Lab reports mentioning this -

snowmman · « **Reply #7168 on:** September 04, 2021, 01:34:53 AM »

just going thru old gmail folders

This is a picture of Sheridan with a can of kerosene in one hand, a backpack on his back, and a knapsack in his hand.
I think the picture is from Vietnam
Although notice that Sheridan is noticeably less stocky looking than the 1967 Saigon Sport Parachute Club picture. This could have been taken in Nepal. I forget.

I liked that he was smiling in this pic.

snowmman · « **Reply #7169 on:** September 04, 2021, 01:42:27 AM »

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I wondered how they determined "Approximately 290 twenty dollar bills ($5,800.00)"

I mean, they could have weighed the mass, assuming no sand. But parts of many bills were missing.

I can't imagine any legit process for estimating the number of bills after Ingram turned them in?

I guess they made note of and counted serial numbers on Ingram bills\fragments ? How else could it be ? But who did this - the Lab ? Who else would be qualified to make such a count with any reliability ? But there are no Lab reports mentioning this -

they couldn't have counted serial numbers.
Think of all the time/work the heritage auction people did to separate bills and determine serial numbers.

there's no way they could have delicately counted bills, with any degree of accuracy.

Weighing would have been the best/closest estimate, but with so much of the bills missing, the estimate would have been more like a guess.

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1559146 times)

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

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georger

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snowmman

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georger

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dudeman17

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

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snowmman

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snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

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snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case