Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1765933 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7095 on: August 27, 2021, 04:32:20 PM »
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If only Coppola had known about the Saigon Sport Parachute Club. You can bet it would have been in Apocalypse Now.

377

Marlon Brando a skydiver?  Not likely.  But maybe Harrison Ford.


Robert Duvall:  'Charlie don't jump'.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7096 on: August 27, 2021, 10:49:50 PM »
Au contrair, Charlie could jump.
Colonel Vinh was bad ass for example.

Good story about Vinh getting snagged under an airplane here in a bat suit. He did 3 bat suit jumps.   Saved by nail scissors!!
From article in the 1971 Sport Parachutist magazine (attached the article pages)


Vinh has tried all sorts of methods of free falling and takes the greatest pleasure in showing visitors a photograph of him when he was a 'playboy'.

This was before his third, and also last, jump with batman type extensions on his suit. On this occasion, complete with Press entourage in the aircraft, he managed to get hooked up with the underside of the fuselage. Part of his suit snared itself, and instead of going down, he just disappeared underneath the aircraft.

Fortunately for him the jump master had watched the direction in which he had vanished and took the troubie to lean out of the door and look underneath to see just where he was. The sight that met his eyes was of a whiteclad body revolving round and round like a top, with two large eyeballs poking out of its head. The situation was finally saved by the British girl photographer who had her nail scissors in her handbag.
These were eventually used by the the jump master, who leaning out of the aircraft door to reach underneath the fuselage, managed to cut Vinh loose. a certain amount of panic had been caused amongst the Press by what had happened and one of them had even suggested that the pilot ought to land.

This would not have done Colonel Vinh much good !
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7097 on: August 28, 2021, 01:08:31 AM »
Snow, think you can find McKay? If he’s alive he may have a lot to add about the Saigon club and maybe even about Peterson. My pilot friend would love to reconnect with him. They both wrenched on Caribous in Vietnam.

377
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7098 on: August 28, 2021, 02:29:15 AM »
McKay was crew chief on this famous Pathfinder Caribou. Picture of the crew at the link below
Kenneth E. McNamara provided this info and may have a contact with McKay (if alive?)


I was a Direction-Finding (DF) operator on the PATHFINDER Caribou RCV-2B,  Tail No. 62-4147 assigned to the 509th Army Security Agency (ASA),  146th Aviation Battalion,  3rd Radio Research Group in Vietnam from 1966 to 1967.   I recall this additional information to what Richard M. McCarthy described in his account  below  of the Caribou's battle damage,  as follows.
 
On Sept. 20, 1966,  our PATHFINDER Caribou 62-4147 was performing an intelligence intercept operation over North Vietnam,  slightly north of the DMZ,  at about 5,000 ft. altitude when we started to take ground fire from an NVA gun emplacement situated on a 2,000 ft. mountain.   From my DF station I looked out the window and saw tracers coming up from the ground between me and the wingtip;  I knew that usually meant a tracer every fifth round,  so there were a lot of machinegun rounds coming our way.   A 37mm anti-aircraft hit our tail;  the pilot immediately banked towards the DMZ,  was able to skillfully turn the plane without rudder function compensating by alternating the prop pitch,  and then landed all of us safely without any combat injury on the PSP-runway at  U.S. base Dong Ha,  a few kilometers below the DMZ.   Below are pictures of our Caribou,  crew,  battle damage,  and "wounded heart" painted on our aircraft by the Crew Chief to indicate battle damage.

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PATHFINDER was a one-of-a-kind HF DF system installed in a DeHavillandRCV-2B Caribou serial number 62-4147 (c/n #82). This aircraft was also assigned to the 146th Avn Co (RR) until it was turned over to the USAF in Apr 67. This information courtesy of Dean Haskins who went on to say that the aircraft had battle damage and was turned over to the USAF in 1967 and was eventually transferred to South Vietnam. Robert L. Taylor was kind enough to provide a photo of this battle-damaged aircraft. Note the pre-1962 US Army designation of "RCV-2B" which should have changed to "RC-7B" in that year when the basic aircraft was redesignated as the C-7A/B. Further note that the designator "RC-7B" has recently been applied to the DeHavilland DHC-7 which is used as the platform for ARL-M.
Richard G. McCarthy had the following to say about this system: "The Caribou was a good system.  My memory is a bit hazy about some aspects of the system like how many ops it carried.  I seem to remember two pilots, usually a crew chief, a TA guy who was relegated to working the DECCA Nav system and (I think) three ops.  Two intercept op and one senior op who was also the DF op. It was noisy like all Caribous and due to the weight it was carrying even slower in the climb than most.  I can't remember if it flew the standard four hour mission or stayed up longer.  Everything that was painted OD and flew at low altitudes was hot.  The Boo had the advantage of space so you could at least stand up occasionally.  Many times the tailgate was left up for cooling, but this was stopped when one of the PHYLLIS ANN crews (EC-47) lost some COMUS Pad pages out of a open door.  Other than the Master Op and TA guy crews were flexible.  I flew on it a few times but didn't like it, not because of the system but because of the similarity to field station work.  The most disconcerting thing about the Boo was due to the long fuselage you really got slammed around when it was working a target.  When we had to turn the Boo over to the Air Force in late 66, all of the mission gear was stripped out ot it and put in a CONEX container.  Someone probably  bought a complete set of mission gear at a government auction years later, and is probably still trying to figure out what it is."
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7099 on: August 28, 2021, 02:35:12 AM »
someone here might know mcnamara or mckay
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There are many of us who would like to find "lost" buddies from our Caribou days.   This page is dedicated to that quest.  Just drop the Webmaster a note if you wish to have an item posted.  Be sure to include an email contact so people can get information to you.
 



 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7100 on: August 28, 2021, 04:08:21 PM »
Ingram vs FBI , NWA , Globe Indemnity settlement 1986:

'The $500 reward Brian Ingram received from Northwest Orient Airlines when he found the money.... will be returned as one of the conditions in the final settlement.'

So Ingram actually was given a $500 reward, not from the FBI but from NWA. He had to return it as a condition of the final money settlement.

Under the proposed judgment, which must be approved by U.S. District Judge Helen Frye, the federal government would keep $280 or 14 bills for use as evidence should anyone be prosecuted in the unsolved 1971 hijacking in which $200,000 was paid as ransom. Ingram and Globe Indemnity would split the remaining $5,520 equally. $2760 each or 138 bills each.

Royal Globe Indemnity (of London/NYC) for its part, refused to settle with NWA and was sued and lost to NWA in Federal Court In Minneapolis in 1976.
   
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 04:16:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7101 on: August 28, 2021, 05:19:06 PM »
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I don’t for a minute believe that the crew was in on the skyjack, but at least one Northwest 727 cockpit crew conspired to fly with ALL THREE DRUNK. Flight was uneventful but they got caught due to a tip. Cops were waiting with breathalyzers upon landing. Remember Ckret’s statement about flight crews being above suspicion? It’s not always squeaky clean up front.

377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7102 on: August 29, 2021, 03:11:19 AM »
How about the NWA/Delta flight from Las Vegas, I believe, a few years ago where the two pilots were so engrossed in their discussion of pension plans and Google-ing on their laptops that they flew over their destination - Minneapolis - by about 80 miles and had to double-back.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7103 on: August 30, 2021, 03:53:46 PM »
Pay attention!

OCR: Optical character recognition or optical character reader is the electronic or mechanical conversion of images of typed, handwritten or printed text into machine-encoded text, whether from a scanned document, a photo of a document, a scene-photo or from subtitle text superimposed on an image. Wikipedia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

It was inevitable that once the FBI began releasing its 302s that OCR would be used by somebody in the scanning and word/phrase sorting of these documents, for any truths in the DB Cooper Hijacking case. FJ's use of OCR attracted the attention of Andrade and Snowmman. FJ posted commenting in 2019:

November 30, 2019
  On 11/30/2019 at 1:41 PM, Andrade1812 said: R99 said the same thing, the USAF tag rules it out. Felt nice while it lasted...
"First thing I do is OCR any new FBI file, there is now far too much info to keep track of.. Stick them all in one folder and easily search for relevant info..  Georger can't find FBI FOIA #43..  never trust anything from such a inept sleuth. For everyone else. Here. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login /d.b.-cooper-part-43-of-43/view"

I laughed when I read FJ's snub of me,  because little does he know ...literally! My education began with OCR analysis back in the 1960s. Quite obviously Gen-Xer FJ knows literally nothing about my background or the backgrounds of hundreds/thousands of other people as it relates to OCR, statistics, etc stretching clear back to World War II as computers and computer tools were being developed, across the board in education and research, and in the military ... in the world! FJ's snub is idiotic at its core and is just one reason why I don;t fully trust the work of word-sorter, FLYJACK with capitol letters. I have worked with people who could literally write the history of OCR and related analysis programs, especially as it developed in the 1960s and spread throughout every area of science known to Mankind!

Do I use OCR analysis on the FBI Cooper 302's and other related documents? No I don't. Why? Because it is very time consuming and mere 'words' and 'phrases' do not automatically equal TRUTH or even historical FACT. Moreover, there is no corpus of DB Cooper test to examine. This is why I have always asked for CONTEXT when people bring up words and phrases they found in some 302 or other document, people then claim reveals some hidden truth, in the Cooper case.

James R. Fitzgerald is an American criminal profiler, forensic linguist, ... a retired FBI agent best known for his application of OCR techniques in the Unabomber case resulting in the Unabomber being taken into custody on April 3, 1996. It took years to find and identify the Unabomber. The techniques used by  Fitzgerald and his colleagues were developed in universities back in the 1940s-1960s so the current application of OCR by FLYJACK is hardly anything new. One problem in the Cooper case is there is no Manifesto Cooper wrote that we can explore and compare with other published works from around the world! The socalled Cooper letters are not a manifesto if they were even written by DB Cooper. So far, DB Cooper is not known to have ever published a 'letter to the editor' or any other printed statement of himself and his views about anything ...  just 'get the show on the road!"

Words by themselves are not truth. Context and verification by other evidence is required. OCR analysis by itself is merely the start of a broader analysis. Like every other tool known to Mankind, when a tool is placed in the wrong hands, the tool can be as much destructive as it could be constructive! Its all in the application. Every parent knows that! FJ is looking for words and phrases he claims are the whole truth ... experienced people know otherwise. But who can argue with Flyjack and his applications of OCR. For me its like watching a board to estimate where FJ will land next! Its actually a little humorous . . .

 :nono:

« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 04:13:32 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7104 on: August 30, 2021, 04:36:06 PM »
One of the first applications/need for OCR analysis procedures occurred in the 1940s during WWII with the need to develop written 'test instruments' and 'scoring devices' or machines related to the testing of millions of people after induction into military service. Primary developers in this field were Ken Stroud, Carl Seashore, Paul Bloomers, EF Lindquist . . . at the University of Iowa. The development of computer facilitated OCR was basic to these programs taught and developed in many universities at the time, especially at SUI.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 04:38:00 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7105 on: August 30, 2021, 04:37:44 PM »
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It was inevitable that once the FBI began releasing its 302s that OCR would be used by somebody in the scanning and word/phrase sorting of these documents, for any truths in the DB Cooper Hijacking case. FJ's use of OCR attracted the attention of Andrade and Snowmman. FJ posted commenting in 2019:

November 30, 2019
  On 11/30/2019 at 1:41 PM, Andrade1812 said: R99 said the same thing, the USAF tag rules it out. Felt nice while it lasted...
"First thing I do is OCR any new FBI file, there is now far too much info to keep track of.. Stick them all in one folder and easily search for relevant info..  Georger can't find FBI FOIA #43..  never trust anything from such a inept sleuth. For everyone else. Here. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login /d.b.-cooper-part-43-of-43/view"


Georger, I agree with you that OCRs have been around for a long, long time.  I have never had anything to do with OCRs but I remember that around 1970 the Federal Government started requiring that some documents be submitted in OCR readable form.   

But would you please translate the above from the Greek.  What is FJ talking about?  And what did Andrade, Snowmman, and I do that attracted FJ's quoted remarks?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7106 on: August 30, 2021, 04:44:26 PM »
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It was inevitable that once the FBI began releasing its 302s that OCR would be used by somebody in the scanning and word/phrase sorting of these documents, for any truths in the DB Cooper Hijacking case. FJ's use of OCR attracted the attention of Andrade and Snowmman. FJ posted commenting in 2019:

November 30, 2019
  On 11/30/2019 at 1:41 PM, Andrade1812 said: R99 said the same thing, the USAF tag rules it out. Felt nice while it lasted...
"First thing I do is OCR any new FBI file, there is now far too much info to keep track of.. Stick them all in one folder and easily search for relevant info..  Georger can't find FBI FOIA #43..  never trust anything from such a inept sleuth. For everyone else. Here. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login /d.b.-cooper-part-43-of-43/view"


Georger, I agree with you that OCRs have been around for a long, long time.  I have never had anything to do with OCRs but I remember that around 1970 the Federal Government started requiring that some documents be submitted in OCR readable form.   

But would you please translate the above from the Greek.  What is FJ talking about?  And what did Andrade, Snowmman, and I do that attracted FJ's quoted remarks?

must answer tonight - already late for something ...
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7107 on: August 31, 2021, 01:06:41 AM »
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It was inevitable that once the FBI began releasing its 302s that OCR would be used by somebody in the scanning and word/phrase sorting of these documents, for any truths in the DB Cooper Hijacking case. FJ's use of OCR attracted the attention of Andrade and Snowmman. FJ posted commenting in 2019:

November 30, 2019
  On 11/30/2019 at 1:41 PM, Andrade1812 said: R99 said the same thing, the USAF tag rules it out. Felt nice while it lasted...
"First thing I do is OCR any new FBI file, there is now far too much info to keep track of.. Stick them all in one folder and easily search for relevant info..  Georger can't find FBI FOIA #43..  never trust anything from such a inept sleuth. For everyone else. Here. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login /d.b.-cooper-part-43-of-43/view"


Georger, I agree with you that OCRs have been around for a long, long time.  I have never had anything to do with OCRs but I remember that around 1970 the Federal Government started requiring that some documents be submitted in OCR readable form.   

But would you please translate the above from the Greek.  What is FJ talking about?  And what did Andrade, Snowmman, and I do that attracted FJ's quoted remarks?

I tried to reply but this forum went down for everyone! seems back now ...

FBI pdf's which is pictures of text/numerics, convert to text (txt) using an OCR application - Some Adobe versions have an ocr application.  Once converted to text a word or phrase search may be conducted on the text. This is what FJ does with all FBI FOIA pdf's. Once words or phrases are identified FJ then looks at the context of the words or phrases identified and 'interprets' what the doc is saying - FJ's interpretations are his own.  No software commonly used by humans can 'interpret' what words or phrases mean in a given context. ..................... since time is short and uncertain that is what this ocr business is about and how it works. Excel, for example, is not an OCR application.   

That is what Snow and FJ and Andrade are talking about when they ask about an OCR search for words/phrases. When faced with thousands of documents and millions of words in pdf form, or searching any massive amount of text material, it is helpful to use a tool like OCR to begin the search of documents, articles, etc looking for words or passages of a particular interest.

It was Ted Kaczynski's sister-in-law who first noticed a similarity between phrases in Unabomber's Opus Manifesto published in the NY Times, and letters to the editor she had edited for Ted years earlier, which Ted had sent to a Chicago newspaper. After much debate Ted's brother contacted the FBI. That lead to Ted's identification and arrest. 

« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 01:28:20 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7108 on: August 31, 2021, 02:40:21 AM »
I don't know why georger is down on ocr.
Nowdays, modern ocr creates another text layer on top of the image layer in a pdf.
that way, it's easy to see errors.

I use tesseract (not adobe) for ocr of the fbi docs. When the fbi docs first came out, I was using ABBY Finereader (software from guys in Russia...they created it (partly) to to recreate russian official forms etc from paper copies)

then pdfgrep to look for stuff.
all linux stuff. (open source)

It's amazing the power of free software and cheap computers and fast storage nowadays.

Still processing serial numbers for fbi bill list. took a break from that for a bit, but chugging along.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 03:04:06 AM by snowmman »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7109 on: August 31, 2021, 03:01:56 AM »
actually, looking back at old posts...the wikileaks cable is what said "2000" cigarettes.
I think Hahneman asked for two cartons of Benson & Hedges?


I don't know why they started saying he got 2000 cigarettes.

If you're dealing with US packs of 20, that would be 100 packs?
but a carton was 10 packs or 200 cigarettes?

Surely he didn't get 10 cartons of B&H?

Not sure of the B&H pack/carton counts back then, but numbers above should be close?


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"For a 20s pack, the typical distribution size is a 200s pack, i.e. 10 packs of 20s.  However, depending on the sales requirement distribution sizes of 100 (5 packs of 20s) and 400 (20 packs of 20s) are also common."
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 03:33:55 AM by snowmman »
 
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