Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1762870 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7065 on: August 23, 2021, 01:55:07 AM »
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The A10 Warthog has the pilot sitting within a “titanium bathtub” that reportedly has stopped anti aircraft artillery rounds.

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377


It's funny people were looking for a manager that worked in a machine shop.
Sheridan emphasized his 1 to 2 years as USAID refugee advisor so much, it was easy to forget he spent more years doing more mundane work in vietnam.

Also, he could have gotten the tie from someone else that he worked with in those businesses that he worked at.

I've been researching just what Ti they used in vietnam. Alloy turned out to be superior, but I'm wondering if they retrofitted some stuff with Ti because it was easier to machine. Also, maybe some parts were machined out of titanium for other systems that the contractor dealt with.

in any case, I'm surprised people have not talked about Vietnam and Ti
People have been too biased to be thinking stateside.
Especially with the comment about "negotiable currency" ...There are many clues that people seem to ignore because they don't make sense. (skydiving knowledge, 727 knowledge, knowledge of Tacoma, McChord etc, nice to women, intelligent sounding language, apparent lack of fear, ability to control personal fear and also control people around him)

Sheridan ticks a lot of boxes. The Ti question and tie deposits from Tom Kaye is relatively new info, so it was never really digested in the context of Sheridan.

One could argue that Sheridan was trying to re-write his Vietnam history, with a big emphasis on Refugee Advisor. But maybe that experience is what made him see the beast as it is.

He sure was passionate about his literary documentary.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 02:03:05 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7066 on: August 23, 2021, 02:02:01 AM »
as another wild card.
I was reading a thing about how the Vietnam river boat crews sometimes had titanium chicken plate vests.

So there's a lot Ti being used randomly in Vietnam in the late '60s.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7067 on: August 23, 2021, 11:38:22 AM »
I just confirmed the size of the bank bag was 31” X 19”. I should say that there is some variance in the size of individual bags because they were produced in mass quite cheaply. Therefore, I have seen others that are 29.5” X 19.5”.

This is a little larger than I thought (28X14). However, because it is 5” wider and only 3” taller, the ransom sits lower and wider, which actually makes it more difficult to secure the top because the top portion has to be stretched over a wider stash. I believe this validates my thoughts that a portion of the ransom was removed and housed in the dummy reserve before he jumped. Moreover, it explains how those three packets found by Brian got separated from the bank bag portion.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 12:33:40 PM by EU »
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7068 on: August 23, 2021, 03:16:57 PM »
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I just confirmed the size of the bank bag was 31” X 19”. I should say that there is some variance in the size of individual bags because they were produced in mass quite cheaply. Therefore, I have seen others that are 29.5” X 19.5”.

This is a little larger than I thought (28X14). However, because it is 5” wider and only 3” taller, the ransom sits lower and wider, which actually makes it more difficult to secure the top because the top portion has to be stretched over a wider stash. I believe this validates my thoughts that a portion of the ransom was removed and housed in the dummy reserve before he jumped. Moreover, it explains how those three packets found by Brian got separated from the bank bag portion.

trying to understand your thinking.
You're thinking Cooper couldn't tie the bag to himself well, because there wasn't enough extra cloth at top (and maybe bottom)

But Tina brought the money in, without money falling out? And the money was delivered without money falling out? I forget now, was there another bag that was used to deliver it? How did the money get delivered without falling out, if there is such a problem.

Your estimate for how much cloth is needed for a good "jump with bag" system may be pessimistic.

In terms of "How to make a knapsack from a cloth bag" :

The right way to make this work is to put a pebble in the bottom corners of the sack. Then you tie a tight hitch around the sack cloth behind the pebble. You can do the same at the top of the sack without a corner. In essence you can make a knapsack out of a sack this way. Minimizes extra cloth needed for tying. Just need to close the top with another hitch then.

We probably all have different biases about how best to tie a bag to oneself.

It's possible to do it so it's as secure as a knapsack. Did Cooper do that? Don't know.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 03:17:46 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7069 on: August 23, 2021, 03:42:26 PM »
The bag was not filled to the top. In fact, it probably had around a foot of empty space above the money with the top of the bag left open.

But when you go to fold that foot of extra bag at the top in order to cinch and close off the top, folding the excess over the hole, which is about 9” wide, means you’re taking about 5” of bag in all directions to bring to the top center. This leaves you 6” or so of bag to tie off with shroud lines, which is very little.

I know I’m not explaining it very well, but the point is that he probably was concerned that the cinch would pop off once he jumped. Therefore, to be absolutely certain he could cinch the top securely, he would have to remove some of the packets so the bank bag wasn’t so filled.

I’ve actually done this with a bank bag and properly sized ransom.
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7070 on: August 23, 2021, 03:50:12 PM »
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The bag was not filled to the top. In fact, it probably had around a foot of empty space above the money with the top of the bag left open.

But when you go to fold that foot of extra bag at the top in order to cinch and close off the top, folding the excess over the hole, which is about 9” wide, means you’re taking about 5” of bag in all directions to bring to the top center. This leaves you 6” or so of bag to tie off with shroud lines, which is very little.

I know I’m not explaining it very well, but the point is that he probably was concerned that the cinch would pop off once he jumped. Therefore, to be absolutely certain he could cinch the top securely, he would have to remove some of the packets so the bank bag wasn’t so filled.

I’ve actually done this with a bank bag and properly sized ransom.


The best knot for tieing off the top of a sack is called a "miller's hitch" or "sack knot"
there are a couple different knots
miller's knot
miller's knot (2)
sack knot
bag knot

millers used to do this all the time with flour bags.

animation
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video might help



if you're focused on how much cloth needed at top, to properly close the bag, try doing that
Note in the video: not much cloth is at top above the knot

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7071 on: August 23, 2021, 03:52:43 PM »
I think your mistake is talking about folding the top of the bag over.
That's not how you secure an open bag with a knot.
see above.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7072 on: August 23, 2021, 04:06:06 PM »
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I think your mistake is talking about folding the top of the bag over.
That's not how you secure an open bag with a knot.
see above.

The money bag does not have to be tied in the manner shown in the illustration.  Cooper had a pocket knife and about 100 feet of cord cut from the canopy of the reserve left on the airplane.  This was enough to wrap around the money bag about 10 times or more.  He could easily secure the bag by simply punching holes in the top of the bag, inserting the cord, wrapping the entire bag in the cord, and still have enough cord left to tie the bag to himself or the parachute harness.

Securing all the money in the transport bag and tieing the bag to himself is quite easy and simply done.  There is no problem here.
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7073 on: August 23, 2021, 04:32:28 PM »
yes Robert99, that's another option.

There are many options.

I'm just pointing out that people have had to solve the problem of not losing flour out of sacks. They solved that problem. Sure they didn't jump out of a 727 with their solution.

But I think there's not enough experiment/testing, to suggest cooper couldn't have secured the money bag so that:
1) it was definitely removed from his body on the jump.
2) it was or wasn't, but the money bag opening somehow opened and money was lost.

The question is whether Cooper could have landed with a bag with some of the money, none of the money, or all of the money.

It's unclear. But I don't think you can prove any of the possibilities.

Cooper had a pocketknife. I'd bet he had some experience  with tying things. And maybe even specifically with nylon paracord.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7074 on: August 23, 2021, 04:32:46 PM »
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I think your mistake is talking about folding the top of the bag over.
That's not how you secure an open bag with a knot.
see above.

The money bag does not have to be tied in the manner shown in the illustration.  Cooper had a pocket knife and about 100 feet of cord cut from the canopy of the reserve left on the airplane.  This was enough to wrap around the money bag about 10 times or more.  He could easily secure the bag by simply punching holes in the top of the bag, inserting the cord, wrapping the entire bag in the cord, and still have enough cord left to tie the bag to himself or the parachute harness.

Securing all the money in the transport bag and tieing the bag to himself is quite easy and simply done.  There is no problem here.

7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7075 on: August 23, 2021, 04:35:57 PM »
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7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.

that's an interesting snippet, Georger. I wonder if she misspoke thinking about his request for a knapsack, or whether it looked like a knapsack.

The parachute would have been on his back. So that's not where the money was tied. If the money was on his front, then it surely wouldn't look like a knapsack which is normally on your back.

I wonder if she misspoke, thinking about the knapsack Cooper requested, rather than how the money looked tied to Cooper?

She surely wasn't talking about the back rig?
what if she was talking about the reserve (dummy) tied to cooper
who knows.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 04:37:46 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7076 on: August 23, 2021, 05:53:55 PM »
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7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.

that's an interesting snippet, Georger. I wonder if she misspoke thinking about his request for a knapsack, or whether it looked like a knapsack.

The parachute would have been on his back. So that's not where the money was tied. If the money was on his front, then it surely wouldn't look like a knapsack which is normally on your back.

I wonder if she misspoke, thinking about the knapsack Cooper requested, rather than how the money looked tied to Cooper?

She surely wasn't talking about the back rig?
what if she was talking about the reserve (dummy) tied to cooper
who knows.

Snowmman, if you are thinking along the line that Cooper may have tied the money bag to himself with a lanyard and jumped with the overall rig being an "earth/moon" arrangement, then you can bet that Cooper died in the jump.

Cooper's desire for a "knapsack" suggests to me that he expected to do some walking once he landed.  Perhaps the paper bag contained his hiking shoes.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7077 on: August 23, 2021, 06:18:42 PM »
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7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.

that's an interesting snippet, Georger. I wonder if she misspoke thinking about his request for a knapsack, or whether it looked like a knapsack.

The parachute would have been on his back. So that's not where the money was tied. If the money was on his front, then it surely wouldn't look like a knapsack which is normally on your back.

I wonder if she misspoke, thinking about the knapsack Cooper requested, rather than how the money looked tied to Cooper?

She surely wasn't talking about the back rig?
what if she was talking about the reserve (dummy) tied to cooper
who knows.

Snowmman, if you are thinking along the line that Cooper may have tied the money bag to himself with a lanyard and jumped with the overall rig being an "earth/moon" arrangement, then you can bet that Cooper died in the jump.

Cooper's desire for a "knapsack" suggests to me that he expected to do some walking once he landed.  Perhaps the paper bag contained his hiking shoes.


I'm assuming Cooper tied the bag so that it didn't interfere with either canopy deployment or pulling the handle to deploy.

So there's a lot of front body area that's allowable, to achieve that.
I don't think he had the bag dangling..I think tied to the front of his body, below his chest area (where the handles would have been.

The cord was probably laced thru harness straps. It's possible the bag could have been secured down low near the crotch area.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7078 on: August 23, 2021, 06:27:24 PM »
fascinating to read about the scale of the construction by the company Sheridan worked for in 65-66
Not as interesting as the 66-67 employment, but for background:


1965-1966 As Vocational Training Supervisor for the Raymond /Morrison & Knudsen/Brown & Root/Jones Construction Conglomerate at Tu Duc, Vietnam, organized and directed vocational training courses in heavy equipment operation, electrical maintenance & repair, welding, warehouse procedure, painting, forklift operation, sanitation & pest control, site security, and first aid & safety.

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RMK-BRJ was an American construction consortium of four of the largest American companies, put together by the United States Navy during the Vietnam War. Its purpose was to build critically needed infrastructure in South Vietnam, so that the Americans could escalate the introduction of American combat troops and materiel into Vietnam. This construction contract, amounting to $1.9 billion (equivalent to $14 billion in 2017 dollars), completed a construction program deemed to be the largest in history up to that time. The consortium derived its name from its four constituent companies: Raymond International, Morrison-Knudsen, Brown & Root, and J.A. Jones.[1]

Over the ten-year life of the contract, RMK-BRJ trained 200,000 Vietnamese workers in construction and administrative trades. The use of a civilian contractor and construction force in an active theater of combat operations was authorized for the first time in U.S. history.

..
Vietnam War build-up
After the Tonkin Gulf incident in August 1964, the deteriorating political situation of the southern government after the assassination of President Ngô Đình Diệm, and an increase in Viet Cong large unit actions, the U.S. government decided to introduce American ground combat troops into Vietnam. On 8 March 1965, 3,500 U.S. Marines of the 3rd Marine Division landed on the beach near Da Nang to protect the airfield at Da Nang, then operated by the U.S. Air Force.[2]:99–102[1]:19 In the first five months of 1965, U.S. troop levels increased to 55,000. By the end of 1965, 200,000 troops had been introduced into Vietnam.[2]:135[1]:19 Additional escalation of U.S. troop levels to 543,000 continued through 1969. But a build-up of logistics facilities of all kinds was required prior to introduction of more troops into Vietnam.[5]:406

Urgent logistics requirements
Existing military logistics facilities within Vietnam were vastly inadequate to support increased troop levels and the materiel required to support them.[5]:406 Only three airfields were capable of jet aircraft operations.[3]:45 Port capacity was limited to the Saigon Port on the Saigon River, and ships were waiting months to offload. Shipping of war materiel as well as economic aid and construction materials and equipment for RMK-BRJ quickly outstripped the port capacity. 99% of all ammunition, and all of the petroleum products required for war operations arrived by sea. RMK-BRJ itself required 100,000 tons of shipping per month.[2]:202 Additional ports were required to be built as soon as possible.[2]:190

Logistics "islands"
The logistics plan developed by General William Westmoreland in early 1965 realized that several more deep-draft seaports must be constructed as quickly as possible, along with accompanying jet-capable airfields with 10,000 feet (3,000 m) concrete runways. The war had no fixed front, and it was clear operations would be required throughout the country. So the logistics planners developed the concept of "logistic islands" or bases around Vietnam from which to seek out the enemy.[2]:135–6 New ports, air bases, ammunition dumps, petroleum storage, and supply bases would provide a grid in the country from which troops and matériel could be distributed to operating bases inland.[2]:137–8[6] In November 1965, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara met with General Westmoreland in Saigon and promised to provide $1 billion in funding for this construction, as well as $200 million to order construction materials and equipment immediately.[2]:198[1]:18

Primary construction requirements
Additional deep-draft seaports with 29 berths were to be constructed at Cam Ranh Bay, Qui Nhon, Da Nang, Vung Ro Bay and Vung Tau, as well as the largest new port in Saigon. Accompanying air bases were to be constructed at Bien Hoa, Cam Ranh, Chu Lai, Phan Rang, Tuy Hoa and Phu Cat. Storage for matériel was to be constructed at all of these locations, in addition to troop cantonments. All of these requirements were to be fulfilled within two years.[2]:2[1]:40–1

Construction progress
All of the logistical projects were completed in time for the major build-up of U.S. troop levels in 1967 and 1968. At the same time, six naval bases with slips for small craft were constructed, as well as 26 hospitals with 8,280 beds, 20 base camps, 10.4 million square feet of warehousing, 3.1 million barrels of petroleum storage, 5,460 square feet of ammunition storage, 75 airfields capable of supporting C-130 supply aircraft, 4,100 kilometers of highways, 182 water wells and housing for 450,000 Vietnamese service men and their families.[2]:2[1]:40–1

Over the ten-year life of the contract, RMK-BRJ moved 91 million cubic yards (71 million cubic meters) of earth, equivalent to a hole 0.25 miles (0.40 km) square and 0.25 miles (0.40 km) deep. 48 million tons of rock products were placed, enough to ballast a railroad halfway around the world. 10.8 million tons of asphalt were placed, enough to pave a 5,500 miles (8,900 km) roadway from Vietnam to Europe. 3,700,000 cubic yards (2.8 million cubic meters) of concrete were placed, enough to build a wall 2 feet (0.61 m) wide and 5 feet (1.5 m) tall completely around southern Vietnam. 11.5 million concrete blocks were produced and laid, sufficient to build 16,700 two-bedroom homes. 33 million square-feet (3 million m²) of buildings were erected, equivalent to a skyscraper 6.2 miles (10.0 km) high, or 550 six-story buildings like the U.S. Embassy built in Saigon.[7]

The peak of RMK-BRJ employment to meet all these requirements was 51,044 in July 1966. Of these, about 9.5% were Americans, 13.5% Third country nationals, and 77% Vietnamese.[2]:201 The work-in-place per month reached $64 million in March 1967, at 40 construction sites.[2]:281 The actual work-in-place was thus 50% beyond the planned $40 million work-in-place.[2]:287

Over 60% of all of the construction work done in South Vietnam over the period of the Vietnam War was accomplished by RMK-BRJ, with the remainder done primarily by military engineering construction forces.[5]:406


looking at 65-66

1965
Repair of Brink BOQ after bombing, Saigon
Cam Ranh Air Base
U.S. Army Logistics Depot, Tan Thuan, Saigon
Chu Lai Air Base new runway
Da Nang Air Base additional runway
Marble Mountain Air Facility helicopter field, Da Nang
Naval Support Activity Danang
Bien Hoa Air Base buildings
Vinh Long Airfield cantonment facilities
Navy pier at An Thoi Naval Base, Phu Quoc

1966
U.S. Embassy, Saigon
Long Binh Army Post and Depot, HQ U.S. Army
Da Nang Port
East Da Nang bridge and highways
Army Ammunition and Logistic Support facility, Cam Ranh
Phu Cat Air Base, Binh Dinh
Vung Tau port and naval base
Phan Rang Air Base, additional runway
Saigon Port warehouses
Thu Duc Island Depot for RMK-BRJ
Armed Forces Radio Television Building, Saigon
Additional runway at Ton Son Nhut Airport, Saigon
Additional buildings at Bien Hoa Air Base
400-bed hospital, Pleiku
Logistics center, Nha Trang
Vinh Long Airfield helicopter base
Navy riverine base, Can Tho
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 06:29:06 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7079 on: August 23, 2021, 06:42:27 PM »
This is the more interesting job Sheridan had

1966-1967 As Training Supervisor at Pacific Architects & Engineers, Cu Chi, Vietnam, directed the design, development and implementation of carpentry, sheet metal, plumbing, surveying, refrigeration & air conditioning, electrical, welding, auto mechanics, painting, cable splicing, and building structure courses both as OJT and in a formal classroom setting. Also introduced clerical and administrative ESL training to the job site.

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PAE claims it's employees were among the last to be evac'ed from the embassy in Saigon..

1963 – PAE is awarded the first of twelve successive contracts in the Vietnam War, becoming the first civilian contractor in a combat zone to conduct facilities engineering for the U.S. government.

1968 – The countrywide support structure of 104 bases and camps and over 30,000 employees that PAE has throughout Vietnam establish it as one of the primary contractors developing engineering and logistics infrastructure.

pic attached is from the '60s..vietnamese working onn a big motor

pdf here that talks about "Engineers At War" and mentions them
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download the pdf and can search..many references to "pacific architects"
lots of opportunities for metal working, it seems. Wonder what "water purification" was about.

example

With no hope of meeting its expanding requirements with Army engineers, the U.S. command once again turned to contractors. In 1963, under a cost- plus-fixed-fee arrangement with U.S. Army Support Group, Pacific Architects and Engineers took over facilities engineering services at U.S. installations.  The initial contract provided for support at Tan Son Nhut, Pleiku, Qui Nhon, Nha Trang on the central coast, and Soc Trang, a helicopter base in the delta. The company’s first main office consisted of a six-man squad tent in the Air Force headquarters section of Tan Son Nhut.

Early priorities were to resolve maintenance problems plaguing electrical generators, water purification plants, and other utilities equipment.

Over time, Pacific Architects and Engineers also began to supervise local contractors in the construction of new cantonments as part of the country’s mini-building boom. Within a year, the firm had grown to 762 employees, more than double its original labor force, and had extended its reach to four additional sites as the number of American support troops continued to rise

« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 06:55:52 PM by snowmman »