Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1762003 times)

snowmman · « **Reply #7050 on:** August 22, 2021, 09:26:18 PM »

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If anyone was wondering how it might be determined that Clifford went in in a delta (track), you can usually tell what the body position was at impact by the crater. Grim, yes, but usually accurate.

good info dudeman17

flares would have been on his boots, right? (or would they have been hand-held?)

I wonder if Emrich's comment about flares was just a random guess, and whether Clifford just lost awareness of where he was. I can't imagine messing with any flare when it's time to pull? Whether it's still burning or not, would they have just left the flare "as-is"...it's not like you're going to extinguish a flare if it's still burning when you pull? Seems too hazardous. Maybe he was waiting for flare to stop burning? but that seems like a bad plan....at night especially.

I wonder if they had any light-up altimeters then, or what they used at night. I suppose something must have been visible.

snowmman · « **Reply #7051 on:** August 22, 2021, 09:27:28 PM »

interesting how dudeman17's description of the right way to scoop out a reserve then, is not what Cossey said. Another example of info from Cossey being kind of random, when he was talking to journalists?

snowmman · « **Reply #7052 on:** August 22, 2021, 11:25:46 PM »

The Hasenfus story is so crazy. Reading a bunch of articles about how poorly run the operation was.
Hasenfus got his own parachute from his brother.

But this detail takes the cake: "William Cooper" recruited him in 1986

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He told the four-woman, two-man jury he was an air freight specialist who served in the Marines for five years, then worked for Air America, a covert freight operation that supplied arms and ammunition in southeast Asia during the Vietnam War from 1966 to 1974.

He said he was approached by a William Cooper, a Southern Air pilot in Miami in July 1986 was asked to work for the Enterprise. Hasenfus was hired as a 'kicker,' the person who pushed supplies out of the plane as it passed over an area.

georger · « **Reply #7053 on:** August 22, 2021, 11:33:21 PM »

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Georger, I'd love to talk serial numbers.

Let's talk about that more. Your silence on fonts used by computer printers in the early '70s is deafening.
Why is that? Are you part of the conspiracy?

Havent thot about 1970s computer fonts ......... in forever. I dont remember anything about that.

snowmman · « **Reply #7054 on:** August 22, 2021, 11:39:25 PM »

And even better about Hasenfus. The name of the dead pilot in the shot-down plane: Cooper

....they found 3 bodies with documents identifying the dead pilot as William Cooper; the co-pilot as Wallace Sawyer; the radioman as Freddy Vilches, a Nicaraguan. [EDIT: I guess this is the same William Cooper that recruited him]

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georger · « **Reply #7055 on:** August 22, 2021, 11:39:32 PM »

Its interesting no 302s have come up detailing the FBI's search of ticket counters at other airports, along the 305 route. Obviously he was looking for the right plane in the right place, right time . . . was flt 305 a last minute choice based on what/where? Or had he been following schedules of several airlines looking for the right target? How long had he been at this, who had he talked to at ticket counters in different places ... no 302s so far that remotely mention an FBI search with posters distributed to airlines and ticket counters in the USA ?

georger · « **Reply #7056 on:** August 22, 2021, 11:51:13 PM »

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The Hasenfus story is so crazy. Reading a bunch of articles about how poorly run the operation was.
Hasenfus got his own parachute from his brother.

But this detail takes the cake: "William Cooper" recruited him in 1986

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He told the four-woman, two-man jury he was an air freight specialist who served in the Marines for five years, then worked for Air America, a covert freight operation that supplied arms and ammunition in southeast Asia during the Vietnam War from 1966 to 1974.

He said he was approached by a William Cooper, a Southern Air pilot in Miami in July 1986 was asked to work for the Enterprise. Hasenfus was hired as a 'kicker,' the person who pushed supplies out of the plane as it passed over an area.

Wm Cooper. You just opened up somebody's new suspect. Will probably hit the presses by Wednesday.

snowmman · « **Reply #7057 on:** August 23, 2021, 12:03:45 AM »

I was looking at Sheridan's resume and musing about how he really only worked for US AID as a "refugee advisor" for maybe a year or two. Funny he focuses on such a short time period. In his book, he creates the scenes that he believes leads to him being on the out with supervisors.

In any case, Sheridan worked on instruction and manuals for a variety of more blue collar stuff in Vietnam. Was thinking about particles on the tie when I looked at these two jobs again. Welding and plumbing and refrigeration mentioned. This is from the bio(s) he wrote (for whatever reason) when he ran for school board in Windsor, CA. in 2006

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1966-1967 As Training Supervisor at Pacific Architects & Engineers, Cu Chi, Vietnam, directed the design, development and implementation of carpentry, sheet metal, plumbing, surveying, refrigeration & air conditioning, electrical, welding, auto mechanics, painting, cable splicing, and building structure courses both as OJT and in a formal classroom setting. Also introduced clerical and administrative ESL training to the job site.

1965-1966 As Vocational Training Supervisor for the Raymond /Morrison & Knudsen/Brown & Root/Jones Construction Conglomerate at Tu Duc, Vietnam, organized and directed vocational training courses in heavy equipment operation, electrical maintenance & repair, welding, warehouse procedure, painting, forklift operation, sanitation & pest control, site security, and first aid & safety.

snowmman · « **Reply #7058 on:** August 23, 2021, 12:19:40 AM »

Here's your titanium in Vietnam 1967

ding, ding ding?

bet people didn't know they had titanium shields in the helicoptor pilot's seats...

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Helicopter to Vung Tau, Vietnam R & R - 1967 Pilot's seat protected by titanium shields - note the M3A1 Grease Gun

Part of the flight was flown by a Specialist-4 crewman. When possible many Vietnam pilots would try to teach a crewman to fly the helicopter. We actually had a Specialist-4 land a helicopter at night on our helicopter pad at the 7th Surgical Hospital in Cu Chi. One pilot was dead and the other wounded. The helicopter’s landing skids hit the top of one of our tent kits and broke one of the rafters, but he was able to land the helicopter saving lives in the process.

georger · « **Reply #7059 on:** August 23, 2021, 12:19:57 AM »

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I was looking at Sheridan's resume and musing about how he really only worked for US AID as a "refugee advisor" for maybe a year or two. Funny he focuses on such a short time period. In his book, he creates the scenes that he believes leads to him being on the out with supervisors.

In any case, Sheridan worked on instruction and manuals for a variety of more blue collar stuff in Vietnam. Was thinking about particles on the tie when I looked at these two jobs again. Welding and plumbing and refrigeration mentioned. This is from the bio(s) he wrote (for whatever reason) when he ran for school board in Windsor, CA. in 2006

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1966-1967 As Training Supervisor at Pacific Architects & Engineers, Cu Chi, Vietnam, directed the design, development and implementation of carpentry, sheet metal, plumbing, surveying, refrigeration & air conditioning, electrical, welding, auto mechanics, painting, cable splicing, and building structure courses both as OJT and in a formal classroom setting. Also introduced clerical and administrative ESL training to the job site.

1965-1966 As Vocational Training Supervisor for the Raymond /Morrison & Knudsen/Brown & Root/Jones Construction Conglomerate at Tu Duc, Vietnam, organized and directed vocational training courses in heavy equipment operation, electrical maintenance & repair, welding, warehouse procedure, painting, forklift operation, sanitation & pest control, site security, and first aid & safety.

Vocational Rehab Evaluation Supervisor ... Stateside via Voc Rehab Act. Large evaluation centers/facilities in all States by 1970. Some of these centers had huge shop areas run by 'evaluators'. Very volatile insecure employment history. About like the aircraft industry.

snowmman · « **Reply #7060 on:** August 23, 2021, 12:22:15 AM »

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I was looking at Sheridan's resume and musing about how he really only worked for US AID as a "refugee advisor" for maybe a year or two. Funny he focuses on such a short time period. In his book, he creates the scenes that he believes leads to him being on the out with supervisors.

In any case, Sheridan worked on instruction and manuals for a variety of more blue collar stuff in Vietnam. Was thinking about particles on the tie when I looked at these two jobs again. Welding and plumbing and refrigeration mentioned. This is from the bio(s) he wrote (for whatever reason) when he ran for school board in Windsor, CA. in 2006

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1966-1967 As Training Supervisor at Pacific Architects & Engineers, Cu Chi, Vietnam, directed the design, development and implementation of carpentry, sheet metal, plumbing, surveying, refrigeration & air conditioning, electrical, welding, auto mechanics, painting, cable splicing, and building structure courses both as OJT and in a formal classroom setting. Also introduced clerical and administrative ESL training to the job site.

1965-1966 As Vocational Training Supervisor for the Raymond /Morrison & Knudsen/Brown & Root/Jones Construction Conglomerate at Tu Duc, Vietnam, organized and directed vocational training courses in heavy equipment operation, electrical maintenance & repair, welding, warehouse procedure, painting, forklift operation, sanitation & pest control, site security, and first aid & safety.

Vocational Rehab Evaluation Supervisor ... Stateside via Voc Rehab Act. Large evaluation centers/facilities in all States by 1970. Some of these centers had huge shop areas run by 'evaluators'. Very volatile insecure employment history. About like the aircraft industry.

Yes, he worked in a place that did helis at some point. Note my post immediately above showing titanium armor on helicoptor pilot seats in 1967. Photo was from Chu Chi area (same area Sherian worked for Pacific Architects & Engineers. They were a HUGE operation..did everything. Imported engineers from Phillipines. Lots of big contracts.. money)

snowmman · « **Reply #7061 on:** August 23, 2021, 12:28:14 AM »

Detail on titanium armor in the HH-3 Jolly Green Giant in Vietnam (probably not exclusive to the HH-3)

I'm surprised at the wide use of titanium. I can imagine lower uses for pilot seat only in more lowly helis?

Note: "The first models, sent to Vietnam in 1965, were used mainly for clandestine missions along the Ho Chi Minh Trail"
and "titanium armor plate"

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The HH-3 Jolly Green Giant was a long-range transport helicopter that performed key duties for the Air Force for 30 years. It served in both the Vietnam and Gulf Wars. In Vietnam, the HH-3E built a legendary rescue record, plucking hundreds of warriors from enemy territory. The powerful Jolly Green Giant often fought its way through intense enemy fire to snatch downed airmen. Few combat jobs were as dangerous.

The Air Force HH-3 was an offshoot of the basic Sikorsky SH-3 aircraft developed for the Navy and first flown in 1959. The SH-3 was adaptable to a wide variety of duties. The initial USAF versions essentially were utility versions of the SH-3. The first USAF-specific version featured a redesigned fuselage, a rear cargo ramp, and tricycle landing gear. The Air Force ordered 51 and then 84 new

HH-3s designed specifically for combat search and rescue. Modifications included self-sealing fuel tanks, titanium armor plate, defensive weapons, external fuel tanks, jungle penetrator, and rescue hoist.

The first models, sent to Vietnam in 1965, were used mainly for clandestine missions along the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Flown by superbly trained and motivated crews, the HH-3s soon established a magnificent reputation for rescue operations under fire. They operated out of air bases at Da Nang, South Vietnam, and Udorn, Thailand.

Their range and refueling ability allowed them to reach any point in North Vietnam and return to base. Jolly Greens were also used in a wide variety of other duties. In 1991, HH-3s flew more than 250 missions during Operation Desert Storm.

snowmman · « **Reply #7062 on:** August 23, 2021, 12:37:07 AM »

Just for completeness, referencing the "chicken plate" body armor used by some aviators in vietnam
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The ceramic plates are faced with a layer of ballistic Nylon as a spall shield to reduce bullet fragments. The back of the plates are faced with a reinforced plastic. So, if you see one of these plates, you never actually see the ceramic. You only see the spall shield and the plastic. The chicken plate was made in 3 different ceramic compositions:

Aluminum Oxide (heavy weight)
Silicon Carbide (medium weight)
Boron Carbide (light weight)

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The new ceramic plates were backed by reinforced plastic, had a front spall shield with rubber edging around the periphery and were available in three materials; aluminum oxide (class I), silicon carbide (class II) and boron carbide (class III). The boron carbide and silicon carbide plates weighed 10% and 22% less respectively compared to the aluminum oxide armor, but were 2 to 4 times more expensive. All three plate classes provided protection against 0.30 caliber fire at 0 degree obliquity at 100 yards range.

In 1964 some were using a chicken plate made of composite titanium and nylon.
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snowmman · « **Reply #7063 on:** August 23, 2021, 01:21:30 AM »

interestingly when he returned to Vietnam after his sojurn in Nepal, in 1973, his bio mentions metallurgy (and hydraulic systems). basically classroom instruction and maintenance training programs. Probably interacted with the hands-on guys who turned wrenches (and lathes) etc. Maybe something similar in the prior jobs mentioned before he left for Nepal. Maybe there was hand-crafted of parts for repair? Probably hard to get parts in Vietnam then and earlier.

1973-1975 As Training Director at Lear Siegler Aircraft Inc.'s Formal Classroom Training Facility, Bien Hoa, Vietnam, directed the development and implementation of "over-the-shoulder" and "hands-on" training programs as well as formal classroom instruction in the maintenance and repair of flight controls, instruments, main tail rotor groups, power plant, airframe, hydraulic systems, metallurgy, etc. Directed a technical manual translation and illustration program.

377 · « **Reply #7064 on:** August 23, 2021, 01:47:52 AM »

The A10 Warthog has the pilot sitting within a “titanium bathtub” that reportedly has stopped anti aircraft artillery rounds.

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377

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1762003 times)

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