Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1756751 times)

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #6990 on:** August 15, 2021, 09:24:47 PM »

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..I just wanted to sound like a typical conspiracy nut

Thanks, Snow. Just what we need. Another nut job loose on the streets...

.. but I do like the notion of folks helping themselves to a little extra moolah that night. All that money being slung around - SeaFirst, a car ride to Sea-Tac, the NWO Freight Desk, a car ride out to 305, and "Johnnie and The Other Guy" bringing the money on board. Or not, depending on which FBI agent or court officer one chooses to believe.

Twenty grand here, ten grand there. Ah, the temptation...

So where did that extra fifty grand go???

snowmman · « **Reply #6991 on:** August 16, 2021, 03:04:49 AM »

Another pair of sequential star notes
It's interesting the star notes have appeared sequential. Haven't noticed that on non-star notes.
maybe the replacement notes were sent to banks for this purpose or ??
i.e. sequential means they were from the same bad misprinted sheet originally. Then a new sheet was printed with the * and cut up and the bills put in a packet together? (when the bank first got them)

They are 1963A notes, which is interesting too...so the bank got sequential star notes that were 8 years old. when did they get them?

fbi file 55 page 164
3rd col, 3rd and 4th row
I00 454 621* 63A
I00 454 622* 63A

also, at the 5th row
I00 454 629* 63A

while not sequential, it was probably from the same sheet before cutting

DBfan57 · « **Reply #6992 on:** August 16, 2021, 05:09:50 AM »

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Another pair of sequential star notes
It's interesting the star notes have appeared sequential. Haven't noticed that on non-star notes.
maybe the replacement notes were sent to banks for this purpose or ??
i.e. sequential means they were from the same bad misprinted sheet originally. Then a new sheet was printed with the * and cut up and the bills put in a packet together? (when the bank first got them)

They are 1963A notes, which is interesting too...so the bank got sequential star notes that were 8 years old. when did they get them?

fbi file 55 page 164
3rd col, 3rd and 4th row
I00 454 621* 63A
I00 454 622* 63A

also, at the 5th row
I00 454 629* 63A

while not sequential, it was probably from the same sheet before cutting

So lets day the old boy somehow managed to launder the money in Canada or Europe. How confident would you be in 1971 that they would absolutely find a $20 bill from the marked money in those days? Would it not have slipped through the cracks more easily? And would you not need more than just cooperation of the foreign country? You would not see as much motivation to find it as you would in the USA

Kermit · « **Reply #6993 on:** August 16, 2021, 01:25:34 PM »

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Another pair of sequential star notes
It's interesting the star notes have appeared sequential. Haven't noticed that on non-star notes.
maybe the replacement notes were sent to banks for this purpose or ??
i.e. sequential means they were from the same bad misprinted sheet originally. Then a new sheet was printed with the * and cut up and the bills put in a packet together? (when the bank first got them)

They are 1963A notes, which is interesting too...so the bank got sequential star notes that were 8 years old. when did they get them?

fbi file 55 page 164
3rd col, 3rd and 4th row
I00 454 621* 63A
I00 454 622* 63A

also, at the 5th row
I00 454 629* 63A

while not sequential, it was probably from the same sheet before cutting
So lets day the old boy somehow managed to launder the money in Canada or Europe. How confident would you be in 1971 that they would absolutely find a $20 bill from the marked money in those days? Would it not have slipped through the cracks more easily? And would you not need more than just cooperation of the foreign country? You would not see as much motivation to find it as you would in the USA

Actually there wasn’t all that much motivation even in Portland, Oregon in 1980. I lived with a Lady who was a bank teller in 1980. Although there was a list of numbers posted somewhere, the tellers had far bigger fish to fry. None of the tellers were looking for serial numbers I was told. It’s like finding a needle in a haystack ! JMHO,

snowmman · « **Reply #6994 on:** August 16, 2021, 01:36:29 PM »

"It’s like finding a needle in a haystack"

no one has defined the size of the haystack
we know the size of the needle.
What I'm saying, is that if you reduce it to star notes, the size of the needle and haystack are radically different.
and star notes are collectible, so the probability of them still existing, is higher. (they have higher collectible value)

The Cooper ransom, I believe, has a larger percentage of star notes compared to the typical random collection of $20 notes. I don't have the data yet. I have to get a list of all serials correct and verified.

With maybe a 0.5% to 4% star note distribution for the 63a/69 series print runs, you might expect at most 4% * 9998 = 400 star notes in the cooper ransom list (or maybe as few as 50 to 100)...if the bank vault had a distribution that matched the print run distribution (unclear...seeing sequential star note serials makes me wonder if the bank vault had more star notes than expected)

snowmman · « **Reply #6995 on:** August 16, 2021, 01:50:38 PM »

two more sequential star note serials
fbi file 55 page 167 3rd col row 41 and 42

L00 982 844* 69
L00 982 845* 69

an interesting side note: Since we know currency is printed in sheets, with so many $20 per sheet back then, we can deduce the other serials on a sheet. It would be interesting to find bills from the same sheet as a cooper bill, even if not an exact serial match

then I'd only have to change one or two numbers, to get a pretty damn good cooper bill ..

DBfan57 · « **Reply #6996 on:** August 17, 2021, 07:44:48 AM »

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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Another pair of sequential star notes
It's interesting the star notes have appeared sequential. Haven't noticed that on non-star notes.
maybe the replacement notes were sent to banks for this purpose or ??
i.e. sequential means they were from the same bad misprinted sheet originally. Then a new sheet was printed with the * and cut up and the bills put in a packet together? (when the bank first got them)

They are 1963A notes, which is interesting too...so the bank got sequential star notes that were 8 years old. when did they get them?

fbi file 55 page 164
3rd col, 3rd and 4th row
I00 454 621* 63A
I00 454 622* 63A

also, at the 5th row
I00 454 629* 63A

while not sequential, it was probably from the same sheet before cutting
So lets day the old boy somehow managed to launder the money in Canada or Europe. How confident would you be in 1971 that they would absolutely find a $20 bill from the marked money in those days? Would it not have slipped through the cracks more easily? And would you not need more than just cooperation of the foreign country? You would not see as much motivation to find it as you would in the USA

Actually there wasn’t all that much motivation even in Portland, Oregon in 1980. I lived with a Lady who was a bank teller in 1980. Although there was a list of numbers posted somewhere, the tellers had far bigger fish to fry. None of the tellers were looking for serial numbers I was told. It’s like finding a needle in a haystack ! JMHO,

:rofl:Is that why you are no longer with this poor woman? She figured you were using her for Cooper info? Just kidding. I could not resist

snowmman · « **Reply #6997 on:** August 21, 2021, 01:49:14 AM »

I was reading old email and feeling a little blue about an old difficult relationship.

here's something that caught my eye. We all know that the marked reserve from Issaquah had the chute sewn that it was easier to repack while teaching students.

reserves in those days didn't deploy very well. You were taught to grab it and throw it out, from what I understand. 377 has covered this before.

In any case, one thing that hasn't been heavily discussed (maybe a little), is whether the cords were also daisy chained in the training reserve, when cooper got it. If they were daisy chained, it could be a reason why cooper didn't cut open the dummy reserve, because he knew that the cord would take longer to unchain (the lines probably stayed daisy-chained when students threw out the reserve, for easier repacking.)

That makes sense to me: if you optimize for repacking the chute, why not optimize for repacking the lines...the only thing you're teaching the students, is how to throw the packed canopy out after pulling the handle)

Sheridan says he used to train students at Issaquah (we know he jumped there, his role outside of that is debatable)

Daisy-chaining is used for a quick field repack as a way to stow lines while heading back from a landing...a rig is always repacked correctly later..normally the lines don't stay daisy-chained for very long.

Be interesting if we knew if the dummy training reserve was stored packed with daisy-chained lines normally. After a student would throw it to the ground, it would make sense that the quick repack was with daisy-chained lines (to avoid tangles)

I'm not sure we're beat this detail to death.

Said sheridan in email to me:

"You just don't get it. The chute with the red X was not used for jumping; that's why I daisy chained it. Students stood flat footed on the terra firma (ground), pulled the ripcord and threw the chute down and out on the ground."

snowmman · « **Reply #6998 on:** August 21, 2021, 06:26:47 PM »

This post from flyjack on bruce's mountainnews tried to clear up the history of how the reserve was claimed to be marked. But flyjack's account isn't fully accurate.

It would be a nice thing for Bruce to investigate: Just how was the dummy reserve marked, and who/when/were were different descriptions introduced into the narrative?

clearly, there was some reality as to how it was marked. The idea that we still don't agree on how it was marked, is an interesting gap.

Mainly I wanted to point out that Flyjack doesn't have the "red X" story right, although his history of "black X" and "red flaps" might be correct. Don't know. Note Flyjack's recollection is iffy: says "I think" about Tosaw's book. Is there any reference in the released fbi files? I think maybe no?

EDIT: Grist for investigation. Someone said that after the hijack, Issaquah had another reserve or rig hanging up marked "cooper's parachute" or something..with the implication that it was obviously another dummy parachute and that cooper was an idiot for taking the dummy rig. If someone knew of that display, it might help identify a reconstruction of the marking on the dummy that did go to Cooper. (Or any other training reserves that might have existed. I expect they would all use the same marking)

Flyjack said:

August 17, 2021 at 4:48 pm
A bit fuzzy now but I went over this a while ago..

There was no red X,, that was tossed in by somebody on DZ…

I think it was Tosaw’s book said a black X.. and a USPA article said red flaps…

Somebody combined them.. to a red X

Emrich’s daughter reiterated the X on the dummy but obviously had no first hand knowledge.

Emrich said he grabbed the wrong chute.. he just wanted an old chute he’d likely never get back. Seems odd he would mistake a dummy chute but that is the VORTEX.

dudeman17 · « **Reply #6999 on:** August 21, 2021, 06:49:09 PM »

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I was reading old email and feeling a little blue about an old difficult relationship.

here's something that caught my eye. We all know that the marked reserve from Issaquah had the chute sewn that it was easier to repack while teaching students.

reserves in those days didn't deploy very well. You were taught to grab it and throw it out, from what I understand. 377 has covered this before.

In any case, one thing that hasn't been heavily discussed (maybe a little), is whether the cords were also daisy chained in the training reserve, when cooper got it. If they were daisy chained, it could be a reason why cooper didn't cut open the dummy reserve, because he knew that the cord would take longer to unchain (the lines probably stayed daisy-chained when students threw out the reserve, for easier repacking.)

That makes sense to me: if you optimize for repacking the chute, why not optimize for repacking the lines...the only thing you're teaching the students, is how to throw the packed canopy out after pulling the handle)

Sheridan says he used to train students at Issaquah (we know he jumped there, his role outside of that is debatable)

Daisy-chaining is used for a quick field repack as a way to stow lines while heading back from a landing...a rig is always repacked correctly later..normally the lines don't stay daisy-chained for very long.

Be interesting if we knew if the dummy training reserve was stored packed with daisy-chained lines normally. After a student would throw it to the ground, it would make sense that the quick repack was with daisy-chained lines (to avoid tangles)

I'm not sure we're beat this detail to death.

Said sheridan in email to me:

"You just don't get it. The chute with the red X was not used for jumping; that's why I daisy chained it. Students stood flat footed on the terra firma (ground), pulled the ripcord and threw the chute down and out on the ground."

Daisy chaining the lines in the dummy reserve would certainly make sense. But would Cooper know that?...

Interesting that Sheridan says that he instructed at Issaquah, and that he claimed specific knowledge of their training reserve. One thing struck me, though, and that is that Sheridan described the students as standing on the ground. Usually, especially in those days, that part of the training would be done in a suspended hanging harness, not standing. Could be, though...

snowmman · « **Reply #7000 on:** August 21, 2021, 06:49:32 PM »

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I was reading old email and feeling a little blue about an old difficult relationship.

here's something that caught my eye. We all know that the marked reserve from Issaquah had the chute sewn that it was easier to repack while teaching students.

reserves in those days didn't deploy very well. You were taught to grab it and throw it out, from what I understand. 377 has covered this before. EDIT: referred to as "scoop and throw" sometimes.

In any case, one thing that hasn't been heavily discussed (maybe a little), is whether the cords were also daisy chained in the training reserve, when cooper got it. If they were daisy chained, it could be a reason why cooper didn't cut open the dummy reserve, because he knew that the cord would take longer to unchain (the lines probably stayed daisy-chained when students threw out the reserve, for easier repacking.)

That makes sense to me: if you optimize for repacking the chute, why not optimize for repacking the lines...the only thing you're teaching the students, is how to throw the packed canopy out after pulling the handle)

Sheridan says he used to train students at Issaquah (we know he jumped there, his role outside of that is debatable)

Daisy-chaining is used for a quick field repack as a way to stow lines while heading back from a landing...a rig is always repacked correctly later..normally the lines don't stay daisy-chained for very long.

Be interesting if we knew if the dummy training reserve was stored packed with daisy-chained lines normally. After a student would throw it to the ground, it would make sense that the quick repack was with daisy-chained lines (to avoid tangles)

I'm not sure we're beat this detail to death.

Said sheridan in email to me:

"You just don't get it. The chute with the red X was not used for jumping; that's why I daisy chained it. Students stood flat footed on the terra firma (ground), pulled the ripcord and threw the chute down and out on the ground."

snowmman · « **Reply #7001 on:** August 21, 2021, 06:51:54 PM »

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Interesting that Sheridan says that he instructed at Issaquah, and that he claimed specific knowledge of their training reserve. One thing struck me, though, and that is that Sheridan described the students as standing on the ground. Usually, especially in those days, that part of the training would be done in a suspended hanging harness, not standing. Could be, though...

hi dudeman17. I don't know your background. Are you saying you had experience, personal or watching, at some dz, training students for reserve deployment? Which dz? which year?
I would have expected most training back then to be more rudimentary than one might think prudent, so standing on the ground seems plausible to me.

We're talking about very early '60s.

In terms of believing Sheridan's talk about Issaquah. Well he did jump there. He actually was on a night jump once where a person jumping went in. (died). That's confirmed by newspaper accounts. (the death/night jump). I'm just not sure if he had any official position at Issaquah in the early '60s.

dudeman17 · « **Reply #7002 on:** August 21, 2021, 07:11:04 PM »

Hey, snowmman. I started skydiving in '79, went through a static-line progression with the same old 'gutter gear' that was prevalent in Cooper's day. I've been an instructor since '90, after AFF and tandems came along. In southern California, I've jumped/taught at Perris, Elsinore, Hemet, California City, And two different Tafts. Mostly at Elsinore, been back there since '04. Wasn't too active this last year, couldn't see doing tandems and not catching Covid. Did some jumps in June to keep my AFF rating current, hope I can get back to it soon, miss it dearly.

So yeah, it's always been pretty standard to have a hanging harness for emergency procedure training. I know Issaquah had one at least by '73, but it is certainly possible to just do it standing.

snowmman · « **Reply #7003 on:** August 21, 2021, 07:16:17 PM »

okay thanks.
that's all good info.
So it would also be interesting to understand what the procedure at Issaquah in early 60's was, for training.

Very few people around who might actually know. I can expect that by the '70s, training probably had advanced at Issaquah.

People tend to think, that if there was an Issaquah connection, cooper would have been connected maybe in '68-71. Just because that's when things were starting to rock so to speak with skydiving.

The idea that connections could day back to early '60s, isn't something that jumps out at people.

But given Cooper's presumed age, experience in the early 60s is probably more relevant. If cooper had skydiving experience, he probably didn't start just a year or so before the hijack.
he probably had started way before that.

that is, if you think he had civilian skydiving experience. Just because people who were starting then, were typically younger when they started? (or ex-military)

snowmman · « **Reply #7004 on:** August 21, 2021, 07:33:16 PM »

Paul Clifford's death was the night jump I was talking about (Issaquah 1962)

here's the newspaper article
I believe Sheridan was jumping that night also. This is from an old post. Back when google was archiving newspapers. They still have their old newspaper scans but stopped doing it. It's possible that the article could be found in googles old newspaper archive or elsewhere. Forget the exact newspaper, but the date is right

Forget if I posted about this in the distant past. Did discuss with Sheridan and he acknowledged it. I think Sheridan talked about the "busy with flare" theory, also. They were both in the Boeing Employees Skydivers Club then (the one where sheridan's pic is in the employee paper, the one the FBI files have of him posing in the suit)

Nov 19, 1962
Paul Clifford died during a night jump at Issaquah (age 23).
He was president of the Boeing Employees Skydivers club.

That would have been about the time Sheridan was in the Boeing club I believe? or close to it

the article is here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

EDIT: just tested the link. Still works! amazing.
was from
Spokane Daily Chronicle - Nov 19, 1962

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1756751 times)

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

DBfan57

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Kermit

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

DBfan57

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

dudeman17

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

dudeman17

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

snowmman

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case