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Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

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6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1756725 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6975 on: August 14, 2021, 05:34:52 PM »
FJ cites the McCoy money that was sent out in paper straps ........ so scratch the universal theory concerning protocols and security concerns. It never fails!

Is there any chance they got the day and year wrong in the Cooper Hijacking ? I just work here, sometimes.  On loan from The Field of Dreams.  :) :)
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6976 on: August 14, 2021, 05:35:39 PM »
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The first memo specifies the 15 unused start/stop bundles as follows:

E 50344994A through E 50344506A
B 07656937B through L 05419634A
E 22084591A through L 66634223B
L 52807604A through E 01043096
L 19538120A through L 72360402B
G 98535159A through L 14348843A
L 34429987A through L 19556442A
L 33474929A through L 09819218A
L 38139808A through L 00934693
L 34346374A through I 33449321A
L 41197159A through E 12561826B
L 33639577A through L 20458S72A
J 02051511 through I 00466866
L 33410247A through L 32378753A
C 05722105A through G 16813690A

The third memo specifies the same start/stop serials, but in a different order:
L41197159A thru E12561828B
L33639577A thru L20458572A
J02051511 thru 100466866
L33410247A thru L32378753A
C05722105A thru G16813690A
G98535159A thru L14348853A
L34429987A thru L19556442A
L33474929A thru L09819218A
L38139808A thru X00S3U693
L34346374A thru L3344932IA
E50344994A thru E50344506A
B076S6937B thru L054X9634A
E22084591A thru L66634223B
L52807604A thru L0X043096
L19538120A thru L72860402B

I contend if you compare these start/stop serials, the start/stop pair are random with respect to the full set of 30 serials shown here, making it likely that each bundle had a random group of serial numbers

Conversely, I don't think you can show that the pairs of serial numbers, exhibit any obvious order, when chosen from the set of 30 serial numbers listed.

There is an error when comparing those lists.. may be a typo. Not the conflict I was referring to.

1st list L 14348843A
2nd list L14348853A

here's one post from Flyjack, and I guess me. talking about how the FBI memos had some errors in specifying start/stop boundaries
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6977 on: August 14, 2021, 05:36:57 PM »
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The first memo specifies the 15 unused start/stop bundles as follows:

E 50344994A through E 50344506A
B 07656937B through L 05419634A
E 22084591A through L 66634223B
L 52807604A through E 01043096
L 19538120A through L 72360402B
G 98535159A through L 14348843A
L 34429987A through L 19556442A
L 33474929A through L 09819218A
L 38139808A through L 00934693
L 34346374A through I 33449321A
L 41197159A through E 12561826B
L 33639577A through L 20458S72A
J 02051511 through I 00466866
L 33410247A through L 32378753A
C 05722105A through G 16813690A

The third memo specifies the same start/stop serials, but in a different order:
L41197159A thru E12561828B
L33639577A thru L20458572A
J02051511 thru 100466866
L33410247A thru L32378753A
C05722105A thru G16813690A
G98535159A thru L14348853A
L34429987A thru L19556442A
L33474929A thru L09819218A
L38139808A thru X00S3U693
L34346374A thru L3344932IA
E50344994A thru E50344506A
B076S6937B thru L054X9634A
E22084591A thru L66634223B
L52807604A thru L0X043096
L19538120A thru L72860402B

I contend if you compare these start/stop serials, the start/stop pair are random with respect to the full set of 30 serials shown here, making it likely that each bundle had a random group of serial numbers

Conversely, I don't think you can show that the pairs of serial numbers, exhibit any obvious order, when chosen from the set of 30 serial numbers listed.

There is an error when comparing those lists.. may be a typo. Not the conflict I was referring to.

1st list L 14348843A
2nd list L14348853A

here's one post from Flyjack, and I guess me. talking about how the FBI memos had some errors in specifying start/stop boundaries

If FJ can find a way in - he will. That makes it exciting....   have fun!  :)
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6978 on: August 14, 2021, 05:45:30 PM »
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Flyjack seems to be correct that these start/end serials, are not in the list of 15 start/end serials.

Maybe the group of bills that are covered by this range (the 2nd microfilm memo) covers more than what should be excluded...but it's broad enough to include the 15 bundles that should be excluded)

begin with L34346374A and end with serial number E50344506A,
begin with L18031099B and end with the serial number L09729057B

In any case, the memo with the 2nd microfilm, I think is redundant? it's not needed to understand the 15 bundles to be excluded from the first microfilm. The last memo seems to understand that.

The bill range doesn't match the previous start/stop bills for packets (x100)... 

The other relevant memo says..

"Because the laboratory was having difficulty with eliminating the serial numbers, they requested we obtain the complete list of serial numbers which were deleted from the original listing of the $230,000."


Why were they having difficulty? and seems like they mixed up the 1500 bills not given to Cooper on the original micro into that second ransom fund.

.

this is the prior post talking about 2 packet start/ends, referenced in the fbi memos, that were not in the list of 15 start/ends to be excluded.

So in terms of serials being discussed, there are (15 + 2) * 2  = 34 serials here, then maybe one more with the typo, that could be either?

All of these serials are *not* supposed to be in the fbi master list.
When I get a good text file verified for the fbi master list, I"ll be able to compare these 34 serials to the master list.

if they exist in the master list, it calls into question the accuracy of the master list. i.e. if bundles were included that shouldn't have been, that means some bundles were missing from the master list, since the master list is close to 10000 bills, and Cooper very likely got close to 10000 bills (not an extra 15 or 17 bundles)

So there's no good reason for any of the 17 serials above from the FBI memos to be in the fbi master list.

I don't know if Flyjack has found any of them in the master list already.
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6979 on: August 14, 2021, 05:47:18 PM »
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FJ cites the McCoy money that was sent out in paper straps ........ so scratch the universal theory concerning protocols and security concerns. It never fails!

Is there any chance they got the day and year wrong in the Cooper Hijacking ? I just work here, sometimes.  On loan from The Field of Dreams.  :) :)

good find georger. Interesting. Yes, the question of what other hijackers got, is interesting.
some new inconsistencies for Bruce to wrestle with in his book!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 05:48:17 PM by snowmman »
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6980 on: August 14, 2021, 06:17:35 PM »
on these two start/ends
begin with L34346374A and end with serial number E50344506A,
begin with L18031099B and end with the serial number L09729057B

L34346374A was previously cited in the list of 15 start/end pairs as a start
E50344506A was previously cited in the list of 15, as an end, but not the same start/end pair.

they were on 2 successive packets in the list of 15, so maybe there was a typo or FBI error.


In comparing the two lists of 15 start/ends, there are some obvious typos/scan problems.
(X's and things like "I 00" starting.
So you can't just use those serials as is for looking up in the hoover list. Have to combine the two lists and make them "best guess"

The 2nd pair above, was not cited in the original list of 15 excluded bundles.
Neither serial is in the "hoover list" in FBI file 55 pages 159-192.
So maybe that packet was excluded or never a problem

So, in summary, there seems to be 16 valid start/end pairs that shouldn't be in the "hoover list" if we understand the fbi memos correctly.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 06:20:59 PM by snowmman »
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6981 on: August 14, 2021, 11:46:08 PM »
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on these two start/ends
begin with L34346374A and end with serial number E50344506A,
begin with L18031099B and end with the serial number L09729057B

L34346374A was previously cited in the list of 15 start/end pairs as a start
E50344506A was previously cited in the list of 15, as an end, but not the same start/end pair.

they were on 2 successive packets in the list of 15, so maybe there was a typo or FBI error.


In comparing the two lists of 15 start/ends, there are some obvious typos/scan problems.
(X's and things like "I 00" starting.
So you can't just use those serials as is for looking up in the hoover list. Have to combine the two lists and make them "best guess"

The 2nd pair above, was not cited in the original list of 15 excluded bundles.
Neither serial is in the "hoover list" in FBI file 55 pages 159-192.
So maybe that packet was excluded or never a problem

So, in summary, there seems to be 16 valid start/end pairs that shouldn't be in the "hoover list" if we understand the fbi memos correctly.

good luck! Im glad you are working on this . . . 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6982 on: August 15, 2021, 03:09:14 AM »
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From multiple sources I've heard that the passengers boarded 305 in PDX via the aft stairs.

Later, in Sea-Tac they de-planed via the port-side forward door when a stairway mounted on a pick-up truck drove to them.

So DBC got onboard and left by the same stairs!

Lastly, it is my understanding that Tina and the cockpit crew left the plane by the aft stairs in Reno.
...
interesting. Although, do you remember who/what said Tina and crew left the plane in Reno via the aft stairs?
There was the whole deal about the stairs being damaged on landing or not. I'd be surprised if they used the aft stairs. But maybe that was faster than waiting for stairs to get up to the plane.
....

It's my general understanding that the crew deplaned via the aft stairs and the FBI boarded the same way, based on what I heard from Tina in the HC docu and the HBO one. Plus, the debriefs. There is no mention of a stair truck being sent to the plane as far as I know, and the Reno/LV FBI agents went up the aft stairs - I think in Calame and Rhodes' book. Remember, the aft stairs were usable, and Boeing later said that damage to them was "minor."
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6983 on: August 15, 2021, 03:12:19 AM »
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good find georger. Interesting. Yes, the question of what other hijackers got, is interesting.
some new inconsistencies for Bruce to wrestle with in his book!


Oh, goodie, more to wrestle with. I'm at 130,000 words, which is double what most publishers want, and I had to cut a bunch from the 2nd Edition, such as lots of stuff on Marla's family.
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6984 on: August 15, 2021, 01:04:22 PM »
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good find georger. Interesting. Yes, the question of what other hijackers got, is interesting.
some new inconsistencies for Bruce to wrestle with in his book!


Oh, goodie, more to wrestle with. I'm at 130,000 words, which is double what most publishers want, and I had to cut a bunch from the 2nd Edition, such as lots of stuff on Marla's family.

Just need a new undamaged cooper bill, and they'll let you write all the words you like :)
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6985 on: August 15, 2021, 04:17:42 PM »
Summary of "How many serials are in the Hoover memo?"
The apparent "two bills missing" issue, raises questions about "Why?".
The missing two bills is not due to a Tosaw error. It's wrong in the original FBI list.
One theory: since packets were identified by start/end serials, maybe a start/end serial was dropped accidently.

This raises the possibility that a top-of-packet/bottom-of-packet serial, given to Cooper, was not recorded.

#**************************************************

page numbers mentioned here are as in the Hoover Memo. pages 1 through 34

fbi file 55 pages 159 through 192 have the images. They are png files, so lossless compression, but dpi seems to be only 72, so not the best quality.

Still, as I noted before, context and "legal serial" provide enough info to get reliable extraction.

page 158 is the page signed by Hoover describing the list
The signed Hoover page is dated "November 29, 1971"
I have not yet checked that this date is after all FBI memos that described difficulty in creating the serial list (and possible corrections)


The Hoover page, 2nd paragraph says:

"This currency is composed of $20 Federal Reserve Notes. The series year, if known, is shown after the serial number by the last two digits of the series year"


Hoover's language is not precise. The "series year" can be two or three alphanumerics.
He says "shown after the serial number by the two digits of the series year". This doesn't include the cases with letters after two digits.

Hoover has an important caveat about series year. I don't think people have called attention to this before.
He says:

    "if known"

That said, I have not found any serials without a series year..i.e. no empty series year field.

If there were any missing series years as Hoover suggests, it would raise more possibilities for matching serials.

I've attached the Hoover page.

If the bills were microfiched, it's very unclear why the series year would be unknown for a bill. It seems we have all the series years, but it's an odd statement by Hoover.

#******************************************************
The additional page signed by Hoover is not counted. it doesn't have a page number
the others do

Even pages have "Page xx" on the left top
Odd pages have "Page xx" on the right top.
All pages have "$20 FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE" on the top center

Blank lines or the header lines are not counted.
Only lines with valid serials are counted

The memo ends with a page with a list of FBI offices and phone numbers. That is not used.

#****************************************
Results:
60 * 5 = 300 on pages 1 thru 33
5 Columns each with 60 serials

60 + 38 on page 34
Column 1 is normal length (60). Column 2 only has 38 serials.

(33 * 300) + 98 = 9998 total serials in the Hoover memo

The list of known series in the Hoover list:
The old 1934 and 1950* bills are interesting. Why were they in the bank vault? and for how long?
What was their circulated condition compared to the 1963 and 1969 bills?

1934
1950
1950A
1950B
1950C
1963
1963A
1969
« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 04:23:59 PM by snowmman »
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6986 on: August 15, 2021, 05:27:40 PM »
Here's a curiosity

In some cases, the sorted FBI list shows that the bills were not totally random.
fbi file 55 page 164 (attached png, cropped but otherwise unchanged)

3rd column top, starting 3rd row.

There are 3 of the special "star" bills, noted with "*"

I00 454 621* 63A
I00 454 622* 63A
I00 454 629* 63A

odd that 621/622/629 are so close together.
And why were star bills in the vault anyhow?

attached cropped page from the fbi file showing that.


these are known as "star notes". They are replacement notes. When a printing error occurs.
It's odd. I should count the total number of "star notes" in the cooper bills.

 

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On occasion, a bill shows up that has a small star in place of the final letter in the serial, and many early issues carried the star in front of the serial number.

This star represents what is known as a replacement note. When a printing error occurs during a normal press run and renders a set of bills unusable, replacement notes are used instead. With replacements notes, a set of serial numbers can still have the proper number of bills even if some of the original bills had to be pulled. The replacement notes have a sequence of their own, using the star as their final "letter." This allows for 99,999,999 possible replacement notes for any given bank, series and denomination. This should be more than enough: According to the Paper Money Collecting FAQ, there's about one error in every 100,000 U.S. bills.

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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6987 on: August 15, 2021, 05:41:02 PM »
another star note case

fbi file 55 page 169
2nd col rows 54 and 55 (down near the bottom)

These are exactly sequential and are star notes
The cropped page is attached for your confirmation. It has A LOT of star notes.

L08 822 074* 63A           
L08 822 075* 63A

(the legal start is letter, than 2 numbers. so the fuzzy L08 is the correct determination, based on sort order in the column. LC8 is not a legal possiblity). The remaining parts of the serial are more clear. See attached .png)

there are other star notes on that page, in the first col and third col

I find this fascinating.

The answer to "Did Cooper get any sequential serials" is ....Yes. :)
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6988 on: August 15, 2021, 06:05:03 PM »
What I'm wondering about, is that if any Cooper bills got into circulation, that possibly a collector saved a star note or other obscure note.

when I get a good master list, it's easy to run a google search on the 9998 serials that the fbi said were given to cooper. (i.e. an automated search. not typing 9998 serials into a browser, but sending the serial to google)

Arguably, I would be doing J. Edgar Hoover's bidding per his 1971 memo

Value of star notes from 1963A:

The 1963A series $20 star notes are worth around $40-45 in very fine condition. In extremely fine condition the value is around $32.50. In uncirculated condition the price is around $100-125 for notes with an MS 63 grade.


here's a random crazy ass theory:
If the FBI incorrectly included certain packets in the list,  that actually were *not* given to Cooper, and then they wanted to stir up interest in the case, the FBI or a rogue agent might have planted bills on Tena Bar, that were saved from that night and known not to be given to Cooper.  Since the packets that were *not* given to Cooper must have been somewhere, they physically existed...

Someone might have pocketed a bundle that night?

Maybe they kept it, and then felt guilty and threw it (them) on Tena Bar.

I just wanted to sound like a typical conspiracy nut :)


EDIT: a pair of 1963A twenty dollar star notes, for example, is on sale on ebay for $275
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There's actually a lot on Ebay, just look at 1963. some are star notes.

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An interesting experiment besides a google search for the text of the serial, is to download ALL of the twenty dollar bill images from the known series years on the entire internet (ebay or whatever)

Then do image ocr to extract the serial numbers and compare to the master list.

that would be awesome use of modern "web scale" technology. Kind of like what the FBI does for facial recognition, for finding people who stormed the capital recently!!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 06:30:27 PM by snowmman »
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6989 on: August 15, 2021, 08:22:08 PM »
While the SR-71 overflights have been discussed, fbi file 60 page 340 is the first time I've read that there was a total of five (5)  SR-71 overflights, but none took pictures because of conditions.

attached.

part of a longer report that spanned adjacent pages.

Interesting from a historical point of view: Using CIA spy plane for domestic criminal investigation.

Ah, who cares about the laws.
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