thanks for all that Bruce.
now with respect to a currency serial list
you said
"2. Yes. The serial number of some of the twenties "left behind" at Sea First made it onto the Cooper ransom list that Tosaw published."

So that means, someone verified that some serials that were noted in the FBI files, as being removed from the original list, were on Tosaw's list? Since Tosaw's list is sorted, we can't determine what other bills are "wrong" then, since the FBI files don't have a complete list, just start/end numbers and then start/end numbers to be removed (and their packs were unsorted)

Is there anywhere that someone found the list the FBI circulated? I'm assuming that Tosaw used that. But if Tosaw has wrong numbers, then it begs the question of when the FBI list was printed (as a brochure) and whether there was a wrong version for a time, and whether there was ever a corrected version that reflected the updates noted in the FBI files.

There must have been a "final" FBI list that's used for verifying currency somewhere.
Has anyone found it?

Or is Tosaw's list all we have?

Whew, Snow. I just don't know. I don't have any answers for the above questions. I'll check my notes, but they're skinny on the serial number issues. Tomorrow. All my note files are outside in the dark.

I have Tosaw's book in storage, but not handy. I want to scan it and convert to text and cross check. But can't do that right now

I have found 3 images in FBI vault file 54, pages 4,5,6
They have page numbers 7,8,9 so they are part of a larger set. Some serials are obscured.
Tosaw's list was more pages in his book. Not sure why only 3 pages in file 54 4,5,6

attached those pages
I will try converting this to text for cross checking. Will take some manual work to cross check against the other known serials (found cooper money) or the fbi published front/back and front/back not taken.

Okay, FBI Vault file 54 has more pages distributed in there (not in order like I expected)
I'll get the images and post the full set from file 54.

Could be interesting to put a page (or all) in your book. The grainy images are almost more interesting since they were real FBI "stuff"

I found in fbi  file55 there is a very nice photocopy of the 34 page ransom list with another page at the front from J. Edgar Hoover. It is dated 11/29/71 so it is the list from around then. It's unclear if there was ever a second list, or whether this list did incorporate the changes prior memos noted. I didn't check the date of those memos yet.

in any case, it starts in file55 on page 158. The 34 pages of serials start on page 159 and go to page 192.

I have to see if I can OCR these to get a text list

attached page 158 and page 159 so you can see the quality. This should be better than the lists from the newspapers which could have errors.

From multiple sources I've heard that the passengers boarded 305 in PDX via the aft stairs.

Later, in Sea-Tac they de-planed via the port-side forward door when a stairway mounted on a pick-up truck drove to them.

So DBC got onboard and left by the same stairs!

Lastly, it is my understanding that Tina and the cockpit crew left the plane by the aft stairs in Reno.

interesting. Although, do you remember who/what said Tina and crew left the plane in Reno via the aft stairs?
There was the whole deal about the stairs being damaged on landing or not. I'd be surprised if they used the aft stairs. But maybe that was faster than waiting for stairs to get up to the plane.

I did some ocr of the serials list from the images in the fbi files. went okay, but have to see if I can find a better ocr. I had to do a lot of manual correction. Which actually is not that hard to visually crosscheck. But I could only imagine doing a couple pages a day to get 100% accuracy, so it's like a 2 week job right now.

Example of  'mostly verified' top of 4 columns of serials from the first page of FBI serials. Created text from the image. (there are 5 columns on each page)....I can then put them in a single column and eliminate spaces in the groups of 3 alphanumerics.
Having a text file then makes it easy to automate searching (and counting serials etc)

I'll have to figure out how to reduce the manual verification/correction though before I go further

funny on the first page even, there were two bills from 1934 and one from 1950. I had to double check those..unexpected!
The * are the star bills


A00 235 B72A 69      A21 603 306A 63A     B04 607 7638 63B     B19 907 478A 69
A00 499 260A 69      A21 873 265A 63A     B04 654 9348 63A     B20 067 455A 69
A00 913 230A 69      A21 975 331A 63A     B04 853 216* 63A     B20 383 946A 69
A00 235 226* 63A     A22 244 208A 63A     B04 905 149A 69      B21 048 335A 69
A00 578 50CA 69      A22 318 810A 63A     B05 028 346* 63A     B21 684 047A 69
A00 625 844A 69      A22 746 754A 63A     BO5 O78 446k 69      B21 757 865A 69
A02 038 168A 69      A23 912 735A 63A     B05 O79 7124 69      B21 938 793A 69
A03 219 743A 69      A24 881 844A 63A     B05 161 717A 69      B22 444 293A 69
AO3 279 803A 69      A25 S44 049A 63A     B05 328 1958 63A     B22 585 550A 69
A03 346 143A 69      A25 646 7O7A 63A     B05 334 4558 63A     B23 204 042A 69
A03 855 866A 69      A25 672 550A 63A     B05 336 854B 63A     B23 312 465A 69
A04 046 B14A 69      A26 210 478A 63A     B05 566 B41* 63A     B23 400 209A 69
A04 135 1624 69      A28 507 S31A 34      B05 586 6948 63A     B23 S77 158A 69
A04 232 752A 69      A28 508 542A 34      BO5 795 2748 63A     B23 815 307A 69
A04 426 9944 69      B00 266 127A 69      B05 842 756A 69      824 000 3654 69
A05 036 504A 63A     800 319 997A 69      B06 101 744A 69      B24 024 265A 69

"The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber bands and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered. "
"

This is per Carr. I believe there is nothing in the FBI files addressing this issue.

Just to clarify my thoughts, my opinion is the money was paper strapped in groups of 100, and that the random "bundles" mentioned above  by Carr were groups of paper-strapped packets. That were secured by rubber bands. And it would be fine if there were random counts of packets in each rubber-banded bundle, if Carr reallly believed the info above, that he obtained.

I think that aligns with all the stories/information. Collecting groups of paper-strapped packets with rubber bands, is and was a practice, I think. The rubber banding was termporary, the strapping a longer term thing. (the strapping was done to aid counting, mostly)

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"The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber bands and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered. "
"

This is per Carr. I believe there is nothing in the FBI files addressing this issue.

Just to clarify my thoughts, my opinion is the money was paper strapped in groups of 100, and that the random "bundles" mentioned above  by Carr were groups of paper-strapped packets. That were secured by rubber bands. And it would be fine if there were random counts of packets in each rubber-banded bundle, if Carr reallly believed the info above, that he obtained.

I think that aligns with all the stories/information. Collecting groups of paper-strapped packets with rubber bands, is and was a practice, I think. The rubber banding was termporary, the strapping a longer term thing. (the strapping was done to aid counting, mostly)

I believe that I have seen what was probably FBI documentation that identified the Seattle detective who picked up the money at the bank and then drove it to the NWA facility at SEATAC.  This detective then put on some clothing that indicated he was an NWA employee and accompanied Al Lee out to the airplane with the money, parachutes, and other items.

ADDENDUM:  Flyjack has just posted about the money on DropZone.  Suggest you take a look at his post #64120.  The letter signed by J. Edgar Hoover transmitting the money serial numbers is the same one I remember seeing several years ago with the serial numbers attached.

Several points apply to this debate:

In addition to agents and bank employees who saw the form the money was in, all of the stewardesses saw the money when Cooper examined the money, even pulled some of the money out of the bag (during his offer made to Mucklow). So far as I know none of the stews have been interviewed on this issue! The issue never came up for them to be interviewed about it! Maybe its time to ask Mucklow etc 'what form was the money in' - were there any paper bands on the money you saw ?

2. Dorwin and other agents who worked robbery for 10+ years, who have seen and worked with "bait money" stored at banks, report this money is in two forms: some bound in groups with paper straps, and some wrapped in rubber bands. But in no case was money ever sent out to a hijacker or robber with paper straps on the bills. That, according to agents violates all SECURITY protocols and procedures, of both banks and law enforcement. These agents believe that was the case in the Cooper hijacking.

3. Agents who I have spoken with who worked the excavation at Tina Bar report that 'no paper of any kind' was found during the excavation, just nails, wood, etc and two rusted pop cans buried some distance from the Ingram money find, but no paper (not even magazines or old books or writing paper) was found on Tina Bar.

4. Pat Ingram told me in two interviews nobody saw any paper on or around the money during their encounter with Cooper money at Tina Bar.

5. SA Carr can be asked today about his interview with bank employees, and Pat Ingram. I seem to recall that after Larry's interviews about this issue back in (2010?), Larry issued an email to all concerned including Tom Kaye, stating the results of his investigation. Has anyone bothered to ask Tom Kaye about this issue ?

6. One reference about the money in crew interviews by Mucklow is the passage: "Mucklow said what she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package." We do not know if these are Mucklows' actual words or the interpreted words of the interviewer. One person at DZ has cited this passage as evidence 'the money delivered to Cooper was packaged as packets (formal bank term = 100 bills each) with each 'packet' wrapped in paper straps. Each packet in turn consisted of groups of bills wrapped in rubber bands. In addition, the person claims other 'words and terms' found in FBI documents back up his claim that "Carr and Georger were wrong".

Georger is just a spectator in this whole episode!

Georger's suggestion is to interview Mucklow in particular and ask her what form the money was in when she saw it personally, and get beyond all of this 'soap opera' about what form the money was in when given Cooper.  Georger is as curious as the next guy to know how all of this kah-kah resolves. Georger has no particular stake in any particular outcome! All Georger is after is the facts, if facts can even be obtained at this point. Georger is concerned that this issue will never be resolved because of competing claims and interests competing to dominate the DB Cooper story.

Interview Carr again. Interview Mucklow. 

thanks for all that georger.

I'm mostly interested in the money packaging, for understanding how the list of currency serials was generated.

If strapped packets were opened and recombined, then I'm wondering how and when the top serials were recorded for the packets used, which could then be referenced to the microfiche for generating the full list (and the full list may not be 10,000  bills, in the fbi list. Haven't counted yet)

Basically, I'm thinking about the process of how the 34 page "Hoover memo" list was created, and how that process connects with however bills were delivered to Cooper, and how serial numbers were recorded, and how the "just record the top/bottom serials" procedure, referenced in the fbi files for correcting the list.....how that all intersects and results in a "accurate" fbi list of serials.

I'm not sure Carr has any first hand info to contribute. And I'm not so sure his interview provided good information. It wasn't clear how he did the questioning. He just presented his results, not what the actual detailed discussion.

My thought is to ask Mucklow. I dont know why she would mind answering. She saw the money firsthand. . . thanks OM!