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Bob,
You promised to provide us all with proof that debris from the area between the two bridges could not arrive at Tena Bar.  I'd love to take a look.

If it comes with a demonstration of how the money stays together in three bundles but also separates from the other 97 bundles, I'll take a look too.

Let me reply here to Chaucer's post, quoted above by Unsurelock, and see if I can offer at least a partial explanation as to how the money bundles may have arrived at Tena Bar.

Chaucer, I did not promise to provide "proof" that debris coming down the Columbia River from the Portland International Airport area "could not arrive at Tena Bar."  No such "proof" exists.  However, I did say and still say that such debris "would not" arrive at Tena Bar.

Debris coming down the Columbia River on the surface would end up on the Oregon side of the river after the river turned to the north.  Debris coming down the river on the bottom would end up in the shipping channel which is also on the Oregon side of the river as it passes Tena Bar.

In reality, there is surprisingly little debris on Tena Bar.  This is mostly such things as a few aluminum cans that were left by fishermen or that may have come from the Caterpillar Island marina that is just upstream (to the south) of Tena Bar.  Keep your eyes open during Eric's videos and see how much debris you can spot.

This matter has been explained in more detail numerous times previously on this site and DZ.

Unsurelock, at this time everything is a "theory" as to how the money got to Tena Bar.  I believe that it got there by natural means and without human intervention.  Also, the three bundles, being almost touching each other, undoubtedly arrived at the same time.  To do that, they would have to be in a damaged money bag or similar container and separated from the bag/container during a high water event since the money was found above the nominal river water level.

Working backward, the money bag and probably whatever was left of Cooper started at a higher elevation with no floating capability at that time and traveled on the bottom to where they got hung up for a short time, with the three bundles separating at that point, and the rest going on downriver.  Still working backward, this means that the money bag and other things were on dry land prior to the high water event that moved them downstream.  All of this implies that Cooper was a no-pull, landed on solid ground just a few feet above and near the river water, and stayed there for some period of time (at least a few months) before a high water event reached what was left of him.

Cooper's body would have decomposed by the time of the high water event and the damaged money container, as well as the parachutes, would have been through any number of wet/dry cycles from the rain in that location.  The bills could have been damaged at that time by the repeated wet/dry cycles and not by rolling on the bottom while underwater.  The river diatoms could have joined the bundles once they were out of the container.

The area where Cooper could have landed as a no-pull is small, quite a bit less than a one-half square mile, for things to happen as described above.  This has been discussed in much more detail previously on this site and DZ.   

I respecfully disagree.

Has anyone here ever spilled their book bag on the way to school? Have the books ever landed stacked atop one another as a result?

They do not.

Has anyone ever seen identical wet items stuck together? Ever leave waterlogged photos stacked for too long? Do they find a spot to easily separate while remaining stuck in other places?

They do not.

If the money is all stuck together in the river, in the bag, that money is not coming out by itself. And if it does, it's not stuck together.

Has anyone ever seen a wood chipper before? Do some of the branches chip and others end up coming out whole on the other side?

They do not.

If the dredge chipped up the money into tiny pieces, it did not sneeze up three pristine packets, too.

The money ended up on the dropzone side of the river where the river itself would have formed a physical barrier to a pedestrian. The river would much more likely leave debris to the Oregon side. A human would much more likely leave it on the Washington side.

The diatoms say the money got wet in the Spring, not before.
The rubber bands say they got dry right after.
The location, stacking and lack of a container says people were involved in the placement.

What people were in the area in the Spring within the 6-month rubber band window looking for this money?

Let me amplify a bit more. 
The dredge was not involved in any manner. 
The diatoms were in the river water and not in the rainwater.  The money was exposed only to rainwater and not to river water for several months. 
No one was looking for Cooper in the Tena Bar area until the money was found there in 1980.
The money bundles would not be bonded together by the rainwater.
The last thing Tina saw Cooper doing was tieing the money bag to himself.
If Cooper landed on the money bag at 120 to 180 MPH it is going to rupture and may separate from him.
The money bag did not have a secure means of closing it.  It resembled a paper grocery bag in design.
If the money bag separated from Cooper, it probably left more bundles scattered along the Tena Bar beach area than those that were found.
And some of Cooper's remains or parachute equipment may have remained upstream of Tena Bar.
None of the above requires human intervention after Cooper jumped.   

Robert, these three bundles were not scattered.
Nobody was looking for Cooper at Tena Bar. Exactly.
There are too, too many ifs in what you are writing.

Three bundles did not scatter, then call out to each other and then huddle together for warmth in the November rain. Something kept them together. 120-180 MPH impact 20 miles away and they stick together without a bag. Now we're back in Flyjack territory, talking about a bundle of packets. In which case the rubber bands survived the terminal velocity impact with elasticity intact?

I understand your position. Always have. It's at best incomplete. At the same time, human intervention is continually shot down in favor of nature performing miracles.

Nature washed the money into a stream, down to the Columbia.
Nature made a hard right against current and lifted the money up the bank onto Tena Bar.
Nature buried the money.
Nature hid the bag.

I do not buy that.

Also, your scenario requires everyone to miss Cooper's body and the cash in March of 1972. It would have to be along a stream, close enough for money to bounce almost in like in beer pong. In your scenario, have you tried narrowing the search area to ten feet from any stream in any direction?  Probably 99% of the land is eliminated.

...
Bruce Smith for example has never to my knowledge tackled the issue of 'redactions' and WSHM's work comparing TTY scrolls - no articles by Smith on this topic central to the DB Cooper case? Is there anything enlightening about it in his book?

.....

That's true. I never really tackled the redaction issue. In fact, I'm not sure how any of us can do that.

What I have done, and what I have written about, is to highlight the redaction issue. I specifically say that the transcripts within which the reactions occur are substantially different than the flight transcripts from the California center, and point out that the stated explanation for the redactions come from concerns that the communications were not related to Norjak and only involved local air traffic. I find that a spurious reason for redacting anything, and say so in my book.

Remember, I am a reporter first and investigator second. As such, I am greatly indebted to the many people who are tackling the tough investigative aspects of Norjak, and have the grace to tell me about their findings.

Of special note are all you guys with tougher eyeballs than I, and tons o' patience to wade through the FBI's 302s. Whew. Thank you.

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I did not promise to provide "proof" that debris coming down the Columbia River from the Portland International Airport area "could not arrive at Tena Bar."  No such "proof" exists. 

Thank you.

Quote

If it comes with a demonstration of how the money stays together in three bundles but also separates from the other 97 bundles, I'll take a look too.

I'd suggest two scenarios:
1. The bag opens enough for three bundles to tumble out, but the bag and the rest of the money are washed away.
2. The bag opens completely and the money washes away except for the three remaining bundles.

Also, I'm not sure that there is any evidence that the money was "neatly stacked" as is commonly repeated.

Chaucer, let me point out again that I did not say the money "could not" arrive at Tena Bar from the PIA area river flow, I said that it "would not" end up at Tena Bar after the river makes a turn to the north.

Unsurelock, you are misquoting me.  I do not claim that Cooper landed in the Portland International Airport area as you are assuming in your comments.  As I have explained in detail over the last 10 years here and at DZ, Cooper probably landed within less than a mile of the location where the money was found at Tena Bar and probably on the eastern bank of Caterpillar Island or the eastern bank of the water channel on which the marina is located.  If you are interested in pursuing your line of reasoning, I suggest you look up those posts since there is no point in repeating them here again.

You also deleted the earlier part of this post in which I plainly stated that I believe the three bundles arrived at Tena Bar at the same time.  I have also pointed out that the money bag had to be going downhill when the bundles were deposited at Tena Bar.

  Further, along with any number of other posters, I have pointed out that the FBI did not search Tena Bar until the money was found there in 1980.  Tena Bar is approximately 20 miles from the areas that the FBI searched in 1972.

The area just upstream (to the south) of Tena Bar was heavily wooded and included some man-eating briar patches in the early 1970s.  Anything going into one of those briar patches will not come out intact other things being equal.  There is a possibility that some of Cooper's bones or fragments of the parachutes are still in that area but would likely be covered by sand at this point.

Let's take your last statement one sentence at a time, shall we?

I do not claim that Cooper landed in the Portland International Airport area as you are assuming in your comments.

I do not claim that you are claiming that. This is out of left field.

As I have explained in detail over the last 10 years here and at DZ, Cooper probably landed within less than a mile of the location where the money was found at Tena Bar and probably on the eastern bank of Caterpillar Island or the eastern bank of the water channel on which the marina is located.

We're all interested in how the money got to Tena Bar. Some say it fell from the plane and landed there. Some say it was dredged. Others say it washed up in a flood. Others - a nearby lake flooded it there. Some have said that Cooper himself buried it to toy with the FBI. I'm saying take a look at the odds on these things.  Your guess is a *really* specific guess. I mean, at least George Nuttall and his partner more generally thought Cooper could have landed on *one* of the islands in the Columbia. Not specifically the Eastern Bank of the channel next to one island. Perhaps it's because of those swirling tides you mentioned? Makes the story more interesting?

I had a professor in Budapest put bundles in an industrial abrasion drum to see what might happen to money tumbling down a river when you posted that idea about river rounding. The conclusion was the same as mine: no way. First off, both ends of the packets looked like a loaded cigar in Yosemite Sam's blackened mouth after just a minute fraction of the intended test time. All flared out and crazy looking. That was only after BOLTING the funny money together because the extra-tough rubber straps broke almost immediately. Those swirling pools of water off of Caterpillar Island you talk about? Wishful thinking. Somebody from the Marina would have walked a dog and smelled Cooper if he landed there.

You also deleted the earlier part of this post in which I plainly stated that I believe the three bundles arrived at Tena Bar at the same time. 

Robert, I can't think of a single human being over the age of 15 who thinks or would think the bundles arrived separately. What part of my previous posts gave you the impression I...nevermind.

I have also pointed out that the money bag had to be going downhill when the bundles were deposited at Tena Bar.
How did it get uphill in order to go downhill? Here's a challenge - name me a single case where cops have committed to a storyline that a body in the wild - or something possessed by that victim - migrated downhill over time. EVEN ONE will do. If this is a known phenomenon, that sometimes bodies/evidence get washed into a river and show up in weird places all on their own, I'll concede and apologize. On the other hand, burying money is a very, very well-known phenomenon.

Further, along with any number of other posters, I have pointed out that the FBI did not search Tena Bar until the money was found there in 1980.  Tena Bar is approximately 20 miles from the areas that the FBI searched in 1972.

Hence why we're talking.

The area just upstream (to the south) of Tena Bar was heavily wooded and included some man-eating briar patches in the early 1970s.  Anything going into one of those briar patches will not come out intact other things being equal.

Except for those pesky rubber bands.

There is a possibility that some of Cooper's bones or fragments of the parachutes are still in that area but would likely be covered by sand at this point.

Sure, possible. More likely than Reca's story at least.


I made this series of points once before on here.  Everything improbable has to happen in order to get a stack of 3 packets of Cooper's money to Tena Bar naturally by river.  The entire operation including the pilots have to *not* be able to track their own plane. Cooper has to *not* open his chute. The bag has to *not* stay tied shut.  The bills have to *not* fan out in the river and mash into pulp against the other bills, like when you shove two magazines together at the open ends. The bundles have to separate from the bag but *not* separate from each other. The body, briefcase, money and chute have to *not* be found in the search area that spring when 400 soldiers plus the FBI plus local law enforcement plus aircraft and treasure hunters are all out there looking. Then, nature can work it's improbable magic.

The only thing propping this up is the idea that none of the other bills showed up in circulation.

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Unsurelock, you are misquoting me.  I do not claim that Cooper landed in the Portland International Airport area as you are assuming in your comments.  As I have explained in detail over the last 10 years here and at DZ, Cooper probably landed within less than a mile of the location where the money was found at Tena Bar and probably on the eastern bank of Caterpillar Island or the eastern bank of the water channel on which the marina is located.  If you are interested in pursuing your line of reasoning, I suggest you look up those posts since there is no point in repeating them here again.

You also deleted the earlier part of this post in which I plainly stated that I believe the three bundles arrived at Tena Bar at the same time.  I have also pointed out that the money bag had to be going downhill when the bundles were deposited at Tena Bar.

  Further, along with any number of other posters, I have pointed out that the FBI did not search Tena Bar until the money was found there in 1980.  Tena Bar is approximately 20 miles from the areas that the FBI searched in 1972.

The area just upstream (to the south) of Tena Bar was heavily wooded and included some man-eating briar patches in the early 1970s.  Anything going into one of those briar patches will not come out intact other things being equal.  There is a possibility that some of Cooper's bones or fragments of the parachutes are still in that area but would likely be covered by sand at this point.

Let's take your last statement one sentence at a time, shall we?

I do not claim that Cooper landed in the Portland International Airport area as you are assuming in your comments.

I do not claim that you are claiming that. This is out of left field.

As I have explained in detail over the last 10 years here and at DZ, Cooper probably landed within less than a mile of the location where the money was found at Tena Bar and probably on the eastern bank of Caterpillar Island or the eastern bank of the water channel on which the marina is located.

We're all interested in how the money got to Tena Bar. Some say it fell from the plane and landed there. Some say it was dredged. Others say it washed up in a flood. Others - a nearby lake flooded it there. Some have said that Cooper himself buried it to toy with the FBI. I'm saying take a look at the odds on these things.  Your guess is a *really* specific guess. I mean, at least George Nuttall and his partner more generally thought Cooper could have landed on *one* of the islands in the Columbia. Not specifically the Eastern Bank of the channel next to one island. Perhaps it's because of those swirling tides you mentioned? Makes the story more interesting?

I had a professor in Budapest put bundles in an industrial abrasion drum to see what might happen to money tumbling down a river when you posted that idea about river rounding. The conclusion was the same as mine: no way. First off, both ends of the packets looked like a loaded cigar in Yosemite Sam's blackened mouth after just a minute fraction of the intended test time. All flared out and crazy looking. That was only after BOLTING the funny money together because the extra-tough rubber straps broke almost immediately. Those swirling pools of water off of Caterpillar Island you talk about? Wishful thinking. Somebody from the Marina would have walked a dog and smelled Cooper if he landed there.

You also deleted the earlier part of this post in which I plainly stated that I believe the three bundles arrived at Tena Bar at the same time. 

Robert, I can't think of a single human being over the age of 15 who thinks or would think the bundles arrived separately. What part of my previous posts gave you the impression I...nevermind.

I have also pointed out that the money bag had to be going downhill when the bundles were deposited at Tena Bar.
How did it get uphill in order to go downhill? Here's a challenge - name me a single case where cops have committed to a storyline that a body in the wild - or something possessed by that victim - migrated downhill over time. EVEN ONE will do. If this is a known phenomenon, that sometimes bodies/evidence get washed into a river and show up in weird places all on their own, I'll concede and apologize. On the other hand, burying money is a very, very well-known phenomenon.

Further, along with any number of other posters, I have pointed out that the FBI did not search Tena Bar until the money was found there in 1980.  Tena Bar is approximately 20 miles from the areas that the FBI searched in 1972.

Hence why we're talking.

The area just upstream (to the south) of Tena Bar was heavily wooded and included some man-eating briar patches in the early 1970s.  Anything going into one of those briar patches will not come out intact other things being equal.

Except for those pesky rubber bands.

There is a possibility that some of Cooper's bones or fragments of the parachutes are still in that area but would likely be covered by sand at this point.

Sure, possible. More likely than Reca's story at least.


I made this series of points once before on here.  Everything improbable has to happen in order to get a stack of 3 packets of Cooper's money to Tena Bar naturally by river.  The entire operation including the pilots have to *not* be able to track their own plane. Cooper has to *not* open his chute. The bag has to *not* stay tied shut.  The bills have to *not* fan out in the river and mash into pulp against the other bills, like when you shove two magazines together at the open ends. The bundles have to separate from the bag but *not* separate from each other. The body, briefcase, money and chute have to *not* be found in the search area that spring when 400 soldiers plus the FBI plus local law enforcement plus aircraft and treasure hunters are all out there looking. Then, nature can work it's improbable magic.

The only thing propping this up is the idea that none of the other bills showed up in circulation.

Unsurelock, you obviously don't have the slightest idea of what I am talking about.  I have NEVER claimed that the bills came UP out of the water.  You need to actually read my post #6934 above.

Your "Those swirling pools of water off of Caterpillar Island you talk about?" claim is absolute nonsense since I have never said such a thing.

As for the FBI not find Cooper during their 1972 search, of course they couldn't find him since he landed about 20 miles from the area they searched.  Any kid who made it through kindergarten should be able to understand that.

You need to get back in touch with the professor in Budapest and ask him to explain the above to you. 

 

apologies if this is well-trod, my memory has faded. I didn't immediately find an answer on this forum.

Traditionally, it's stated there were 36 passengers on board Flight 305, not counting the crew or Dan Cooper.

Northwest Airlines issued the names of the 36 passengers on 11/25/71 and it was published in a newspaper (at least 1)
It was later included in fbi vault file 53 page 154. (attached png). The vertical marks are not pencil marks, they are staples.

I read a post from Bruce where Bruce said:
"The list I compiled and published is an amalgam from many sources. The Seattle Times published a passenger list in 1971, and Carol Abracadabra discussed it at the 2011 conference. But it is not 100% accurate. Shutter, I believe, found the NWO manifest some time ago, and it, too, is not complete. Lastly, Geoffrey Gray gave us lots of info on certain passengers from his perusal of the 302s back in 2008-9, but he never offered a full listing of the passengers."

This is the full list of passenger names as published then. It has 36 names. It does not include Dan Cooper.

Based on what Bruce suggests above, is there known information that any of these passenger names is wrong? Or is there another list of 36 names that has a different set than these?
Or was the number of passengers not 36 (excluding Dan Cooper and crew).

I'm not sure why Bruce implied the passenger list is not a known set of facts.

Dennis Michaelson
Larry Finegold
A. Menendez
Ray D. Clouse
George Kurota
Mr. Pallart
Robert Cummings
Mrs. Cummings
C. A. MacDonald
Daniel Rice
J. R. Wornstaff
Patrick Minsch
LaVonne Connelly
Arnold O. Andvik
Bill McPherson
S. McPherson (son)
Scott McPherson
Mr. Weitzel
W. P. Jensen
Mrs. Helen Connors
Jack Almstead
A. B. Truitt
Charles Street
R. P. Donohoe 
W. J. Murphey
Mrs. Barbara Simmons
Michael Cooper
Nancy House
William Keats
C. Harms Zem Spreckiel
William Mitchell
Robert B. Gregory
Lynn Cummings
George Labisoniere
Mrs. Kloepfer
R. J. Simmons