Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1752211 times)

Chaucer · « **Reply #6900 on:** August 09, 2021, 09:19:17 PM »

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As per some earlier posts...Although sunken debris rolling along the bottom of the river ends up on the Oregon side of the river, that is not necessarily true of debris floating on the surface. At least according to what Hager told me that he had observed. I believe the tides or maybe shipping traffic wake or maybe a combination of factors would sometimes cause surface debris to end up on the Tena Bar side of the river. He also stated that back in those days there was a lot of debris coming thru Tena Bar. Hager said that the debris usually did not stay there very long.
The notion that debris, beginning on the north bank of the river between the I-5 and I-205 bridges, could not reach Tena Bar is repeated again and again without any evidence. Meanwhile, here is a map of a marine debris along that area of the river:

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The group that collects this data is the Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership. Here's their phone number and email:

503-226-1565
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I encourage anyone to reach out to them and ask them about debris on Tena Bar.

The link mentioned above lists such things as truck tires and abandoned boats being found in the Tena Bar area. There used to be a boat anchorage downstream (to the north) of Tena Bar. I doubt very much that any of the debris listed in that link got there by natural means. The information in this link doesn't prove anything.

Georger has previously posted a link which he claimed was relevant to the Tena Bar debris. But that link doesn't even mention debris.

If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.

First, I asked you an honest question about FOIA, and you immediately jumped to being a condescending dickhead about it. Surprise, surprise.

Second, I provided you with the contact information of an organization who works in exactly the sort of thing we are talking about it. I assume you have not bothered to reach out and ask. You prefer to say thing like “I doubt very much”. Go ahead and “doubt” all you want. The fact remains that you have not provided any evidence of your claims that debris from downstream doesn’t end up at Tena Bar.

All you have is your “feelings”, “doubts”, and “assumptions”.

Robert99 · « **Reply #6901 on:** August 09, 2021, 10:26:15 PM »

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As per some earlier posts...Although sunken debris rolling along the bottom of the river ends up on the Oregon side of the river, that is not necessarily true of debris floating on the surface. At least according to what Hager told me that he had observed. I believe the tides or maybe shipping traffic wake or maybe a combination of factors would sometimes cause surface debris to end up on the Tena Bar side of the river. He also stated that back in those days there was a lot of debris coming thru Tena Bar. Hager said that the debris usually did not stay there very long.
The notion that debris, beginning on the north bank of the river between the I-5 and I-205 bridges, could not reach Tena Bar is repeated again and again without any evidence. Meanwhile, here is a map of a marine debris along that area of the river:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The group that collects this data is the Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership. Here's their phone number and email:

503-226-1565
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I encourage anyone to reach out to them and ask them about debris on Tena Bar.

The link mentioned above lists such things as truck tires and abandoned boats being found in the Tena Bar area. There used to be a boat anchorage downstream (to the north) of Tena Bar. I doubt very much that any of the debris listed in that link got there by natural means. The information in this link doesn't prove anything.

Georger has previously posted a link which he claimed was relevant to the Tena Bar debris. But that link doesn't even mention debris.

If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.
First, I asked you an honest question about FOIA, and you immediately jumped to being a condescending dickhead about it. Surprise, surprise.

Second, I provided you with the contact information of an organization who works in exactly the sort of thing we are talking about it. I assume you have not bothered to reach out and ask. You prefer to say thing like “I doubt very much”. Go ahead and “doubt” all you want. The fact remains that you have not provided any evidence of your claims that debris from downstream doesn’t end up at Tena Bar.

All you have is your “feelings”, “doubts”, and “assumptions”.

My, my, Chaucer. In case you didn't notice, I answered your question about the FOIAs. Does that make you a "dickhead" for not bothering to read that reply? Surprise, surprise, indeed!

I have never claimed that "debris from downstream doesn't end up at Tena Bar." But my "feelings", and "doubts", plus my "assumptions", are that is not very likely. But based on the "assumption" that water flows downhill (that means downstream in this case) my "feelings" are that any debris that ends up at Tena Bar by natural means probably came from upstream.

I did in fact look at the link you posted as I have previously mentioned. I do not see anything in that link that would merit further action.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6902 on:** August 09, 2021, 11:14:17 PM »

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As per some earlier posts...Although sunken debris rolling along the bottom of the river ends up on the Oregon side of the river, that is not necessarily true of debris floating on the surface. At least according to what Hager told me that he had observed. I believe the tides or maybe shipping traffic wake or maybe a combination of factors would sometimes cause surface debris to end up on the Tena Bar side of the river. He also stated that back in those days there was a lot of debris coming thru Tena Bar. Hager said that the debris usually did not stay there very long.
The notion that debris, beginning on the north bank of the river between the I-5 and I-205 bridges, could not reach Tena Bar is repeated again and again without any evidence. Meanwhile, here is a map of a marine debris along that area of the river:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The group that collects this data is the Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership. Here's their phone number and email:

503-226-1565
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I encourage anyone to reach out to them and ask them about debris on Tena Bar.

The link mentioned above lists such things as truck tires and abandoned boats being found in the Tena Bar area. There used to be a boat anchorage downstream (to the north) of Tena Bar. I doubt very much that any of the debris listed in that link got there by natural means. The information in this link doesn't prove anything.

Georger has previously posted a link which he claimed was relevant to the Tena Bar debris. But that link doesn't even mention debris.

If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.
First, I asked you an honest question about FOIA, and you immediately jumped to being a condescending dickhead about it. Surprise, surprise.

Second, I provided you with the contact information of an organization who works in exactly the sort of thing we are talking about it. I assume you have not bothered to reach out and ask. You prefer to say thing like “I doubt very much”. Go ahead and “doubt” all you want. The fact remains that you have not provided any evidence of your claims that debris from downstream doesn’t end up at Tena Bar.

All you have is your “feelings”, “doubts”, and “assumptions”.

My, my, Chaucer. In case you didn't notice, I answered your question about the FOIAs. Does that make you a "dickhead" for not bothering to read that reply? Surprise, surprise, indeed!

I have never claimed that "debris from downstream doesn't end up at Tena Bar." But my "feelings", and "doubts", plus my "assumptions", are that is not very likely. But based on the "assumption" that water flows downhill (that means downstream in this case) my "feelings" are that any debris that ends up at Tena Bar by natural means probably came from upstream.

I did in fact look at the link you posted as I have previously mentioned. I do not see anything in that link that would merit further action.

Yes, water flows downhill, but it definitely doesn’t flow backwards. But, thank you for finally agreeing that A. it’s possible that the money on Tena Bar could have arrived there from as far away as the area between the bridges and B. That you have no evidence to support your assumption that it could not have

That’s called progress!

georger · « **Reply #6903 on:** August 10, 2021, 12:22:29 AM »

All Harrison/WSHM files (all of them) have been recovered and in hand. Robert99 is therefore no longer relevant in spite of his "I am not at liberty to share", bs.

So, let me share one report graphic from a WSHM pdf. Let's get Robert99 to explain what WSHM is saying! This is from one of the files that Roberto99 is not at liberty to share. I will get somebody to convert the whole pdf into text so the whole thing can be posted.

FJ? Wanna copy of all of this crap? How would we arrange that? Would Smith be willing to serve as a go-between? Chaucer, I suppose you will want a copy too ?

The lines: subsequent efforts by the WSHM to secure .... have not been productive. Thats probably one part R99 doesnt want people to see.

georger · « **Reply #6904 on:** August 10, 2021, 12:44:30 AM »

A little background to the WSHM research, as per R99 at the time ... this will be long:

Robert99
Registered: Mar 13, 2009
Posts: 1772

Oct 24, 2013, 4:20 PM
Post #47732 of 47744 (328 views)

Re: [wshscurators] New additions to Cooper exhibit - NEW [In reply to]
Quote | Reply

________________________________________
wshscurators wrote:
To the members of the Dropzone online forum:

The curators for the Washington State Historical Society’s exhibition, COOPER, currently on display at the Washington State History Museum in Tacoma, would like to share some information regarding new additions recently made to both our museum’s temporary exhibition and online gallery on the WSHS website, relating to the history and investigation of the hijacking that occurred on November 24, 1971.

Among the new additions now on display for review, are a 1:50 scale model of the Boeing 727-051 aircraft that served as Northwest Orient Airlines flight 305, fabricated with a “cutaway” view of the aircraft for viewing the interior spaces; and original notes and documents on loan from the family of George Harrison, the Northwest Airlines executive at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport who coordinated the hijacker’s demands with the FBI and local law enforcement. The archives from Mr. Harrison include documents never before seen by the public, including 23 pages of handwritten notes with a timeline of the hijacking as it unfolded; a refueling receipt for the Northwest aircraft; copy of the check made out to Seafirst National Bank, for the $200,000 ransom amount paid to the hijacker; and an original copy of the teletype transcript of communications, between the crew of flight 305 and Sea-Tac Airport.

The Washington State Historical Society has obtained special permission from the lender, to digitize and make available the 23 pages of notes by George Harrison, and offer these for review as part of our COOPER gallery of media and information, and which may be accessed at the following URL: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

In addition, we also have new interviews from NW flight 305 passenger Bill Mitchell, and Wally Johnson, Ret. USAF, who was one of the loadmasters for the 727 test flight conducted January 6, 1972.

We are pleased as well, that all of these recent additions have come to WSHS from sources who have just recently contacted our organization and come forward, since the exhibition opened on August 25, 2013.

Please join us this year on November 30, 2013, when WSHS hosts the annual Cooper symposium at the Washington State History Museum (information here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login). The exhibition will be on display through January 5, 2014 in Tacoma, and hope each of you may have an opportunity to come visit and see firsthand the history behind both Dan Cooper and the legacy of air travel security we have today.

Regards,
WSHS

WSHS CURATORS, You cannot overestimate the value of the information that you have linked to in your post. Just glancing at it as it was printing out, I see information that is extremely valuable and which I have not been able to find elsewhere.

Please post the links to any additional information such as this that you may obtain. Again, you cannot overestimate its value to a researcher.

Also, if you ever come in contact with anyone, such as an FAA Air Traffic Controller who has a complete copy of the Seattle ATC transcripts, including the phone crosstalk between the sector controllers who worked the hijacked flight, please ask them to permit you to post it online. The FBI has released a highly redacted copy of that transcript which essentially removes all information that would assist researchers.

Thanks again.

Robert Nicholson

wshscurators
Registered: Oct 24, 2013
Oct 24, 2013, 3:56 PM
Post #47731 of 47744 (348 views)

New additions to Cooper exhibit - NEW [In reply to]
Quote | Reply

________________________________________
To the members of the Dropzone online forum:

The curators for the Washington State Historical Society’s exhibition, COOPER, currently on display at the Washington State History Museum in Tacoma, would like to share some information regarding new additions recently made to both our museum’s temporary exhibition and online gallery on the WSHS website, relating to the history and investigation of the hijacking that occurred on November 24, 1971.

Among the new additions now on display for review, are a 1:50 scale model of the Boeing 727-051 aircraft that served as Northwest Orient Airlines flight 305, fabricated with a “cutaway” view of the aircraft for viewing the interior spaces; and original notes and documents on loan from the family of George Harrison, the Northwest Airlines executive at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport who coordinated the hijacker’s demands with the FBI and local law enforcement. The archives from Mr. Harrison include documents never before seen by the public, including 23 pages of handwritten notes with a timeline of the hijacking as it unfolded; a refueling receipt for the Northwest aircraft; copy of the check made out to Seafirst National Bank, for the $200,000 ransom amount paid to the hijacker; and an original copy of the teletype transcript of communications, between the crew of flight 305 and Sea-Tac Airport.

The Washington State Historical Society has obtained special permission from the lender, to digitize and make available the 23 pages of notes by George Harrison, and offer these for review as part of our COOPER gallery of media and information, and which may be accessed at the following URL: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

In addition, we also have new interviews from NW flight 305 passenger Bill Mitchell, and Wally Johnson, Ret. USAF, who was one of the loadmasters for the 727 test flight conducted January 6, 1972.

We are pleased as well, that all of these recent additions have come to WSHS from sources who have just recently contacted our organization and come forward, since the exhibition opened on August 25, 2013.

Please join us this year on November 30, 2013, when WSHS hosts the annual Cooper symposium at the Washington State History Museum (information here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login). The exhibition will be on display through January 5, 2014 in Tacoma, and hope each of you may have an opportunity to come visit and see firsthand the history behind both Dan Cooper and the legacy of air travel security we have today.

Regards,
WSHS

Merry Christmas Cooper Hunters.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6905 on:** August 10, 2021, 12:58:51 AM »

Yes, I’d love a copy. You have my email. Send when convenient.

georger · « **Reply #6906 on:** August 10, 2021, 01:00:07 AM »

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Yes, I’d love a copy. You have my email. Send when convenient.

Let me think about this. I see no reason why not! It was all in the public domain to begin with.

Robert99 · « **Reply #6907 on:** August 10, 2021, 01:45:10 AM »

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As per some earlier posts...Although sunken debris rolling along the bottom of the river ends up on the Oregon side of the river, that is not necessarily true of debris floating on the surface. At least according to what Hager told me that he had observed. I believe the tides or maybe shipping traffic wake or maybe a combination of factors would sometimes cause surface debris to end up on the Tena Bar side of the river. He also stated that back in those days there was a lot of debris coming thru Tena Bar. Hager said that the debris usually did not stay there very long.
The notion that debris, beginning on the north bank of the river between the I-5 and I-205 bridges, could not reach Tena Bar is repeated again and again without any evidence. Meanwhile, here is a map of a marine debris along that area of the river:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The group that collects this data is the Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership. Here's their phone number and email:

503-226-1565
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I encourage anyone to reach out to them and ask them about debris on Tena Bar.

The link mentioned above lists such things as truck tires and abandoned boats being found in the Tena Bar area. There used to be a boat anchorage downstream (to the north) of Tena Bar. I doubt very much that any of the debris listed in that link got there by natural means. The information in this link doesn't prove anything.

Georger has previously posted a link which he claimed was relevant to the Tena Bar debris. But that link doesn't even mention debris.

If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.
First, I asked you an honest question about FOIA, and you immediately jumped to being a condescending dickhead about it. Surprise, surprise.

Second, I provided you with the contact information of an organization who works in exactly the sort of thing we are talking about it. I assume you have not bothered to reach out and ask. You prefer to say thing like “I doubt very much”. Go ahead and “doubt” all you want. The fact remains that you have not provided any evidence of your claims that debris from downstream doesn’t end up at Tena Bar.

All you have is your “feelings”, “doubts”, and “assumptions”.

My, my, Chaucer. In case you didn't notice, I answered your question about the FOIAs. Does that make you a "dickhead" for not bothering to read that reply? Surprise, surprise, indeed!

I have never claimed that "debris from downstream doesn't end up at Tena Bar." But my "feelings", and "doubts", plus my "assumptions", are that is not very likely. But based on the "assumption" that water flows downhill (that means downstream in this case) my "feelings" are that any debris that ends up at Tena Bar by natural means probably came from upstream.

I did in fact look at the link you posted as I have previously mentioned. I do not see anything in that link that would merit further action.
Yes, water flows downhill, but it definitely doesn’t flow backwards. But, thank you for finally agreeing that A. it’s possible that the money on Tena Bar could have arrived there from as far away as the area between the bridges and B. That you have no evidence to support your assumption that it could not have

That’s called progress!

Chaucer, my post must have gained something in the translation. You are the one that indicated in your original post that the debris at Tina Bar came from the north (or downstream) which means it came backwards. And I have never claimed that debris in the PIA area could not make it to the Tena Bar area. I just said it would be on the Oregon side of the river.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6908 on:** August 10, 2021, 01:49:03 AM »

Bob, I have ALWAYS contended that the debris came from the area of the river in which the plane crossed over - the area between the two bridges just north of the Portland Airport.

Conversely, you have ALWAYS contended that debris from the area I just mentioned could never make it to Tena Bar. However, I welcome your change of opinion.

Robert99 · « **Reply #6909 on:** August 10, 2021, 01:54:28 AM »

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Bob, I have ALWAYS contended that the debris came from the area of the river in which the plane crossed over - the area between the two bridges just north of the Portland Airport.

Conversely, you have ALWAYS contended that debris from the area I just mentioned could never make it to Tena Bar. However, I welcome your change of opinion.

Chaucer, is English your first language? I have not changed my opinion.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6910 on:** August 10, 2021, 02:03:48 AM »

Quote

If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.

Quote

And I have never claimed that debris in the PIA area could not make it to the Tena Bar area.

These two statements of yours appear to be contradictory.

Robert99 · « **Reply #6911 on:** August 10, 2021, 02:04:05 AM »

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All Harrison/WSHM files (all of them) have been recovered and in hand. Robert99 is therefore no longer relevant in spite of his "I am not at liberty to share", bs.

So, let me share one report graphic from a WSHM pdf. Let's get Robert99 to explain what WSHM is saying! This is from one of the files that Roberto99 is not at liberty to share. I will get somebody to convert the whole pdf into text so the whole thing can be posted.

FJ? Wanna copy of all of this crap? How would we arrange that? Would Smith be willing to serve as a go-between? Chaucer, I suppose you will want a copy too ?

The lines: subsequent efforts by the WSHM to secure .... have not been productive. Thats probably one part R99 doesnt want people to see.

Georger, the George Harrison files have been online here on Shutter's site for years and years. After visiting your shrink, stop by your optician and get your eyes checked.

And none of this contains the analysis I was referring to. It is a "work product" by someone else and I am not passing it on.

Robert99 · « **Reply #6912 on:** August 10, 2021, 02:16:35 AM »

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Quote
If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.

Quote
And I have never claimed that debris in the PIA area could not make it to the Tena Bar area.

These two statements of yours appear to be contradictory.

Chaucer, you should take the Logic 101 course at your local community college. You would definitely benefit from it.

Tena Bar is the name of a specific small area on the east side of the Columbia River adjacent to the Fazio farm and sand operation. The term "Tena Bar area" implies a much larger area and, in the context that I used it, means the Oregon or west side of the Columbia River opposite Tena Bar itself.

georger · « **Reply #6913 on:** August 10, 2021, 02:57:53 AM »

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Quote
If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.

Quote
And I have never claimed that debris in the PIA area could not make it to the Tena Bar area.

These two statements of yours appear to be contradictory.

Chaucer, you should take the Logic 101 course at your local community college. You would definitely benefit from it.

Tena Bar is the name of a specific small area on the east side of the Columbia River adjacent to the Fazio farm and sand operation. The term "Tena Bar area" implies a much larger area and, in the context that I used it, means the Oregon or west side of the Columbia River opposite Tena Bar itself.

[If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.]

Woah! Where and when have I ever said that?

Chaucer · « **Reply #6914 on:** August 10, 2021, 03:03:02 AM »

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Quote
If Chaucer and Georger want to continue pushing their claims that Columbia River debris from the area of the Portland International Airport is going to end up at Tena Bar by natural means then it would be nice if they could produce a single piece of believable evidence to support their claims.

Quote
And I have never claimed that debris in the PIA area could not make it to the Tena Bar area.

These two statements of yours appear to be contradictory.

Chaucer, you should take the Logic 101 course at your local community college. You would definitely benefit from it.

Tena Bar is the name of a specific small area on the east side of the Columbia River adjacent to the Fazio farm and sand operation. The term "Tena Bar area" implies a much larger area and, in the context that I used it, means the Oregon or west side of the Columbia River opposite Tena Bar itself.

What a marvelous act of equivocation on your part!

So, now “Tena Bar” can extend as far south at Vancouver, as far north as Caples and can even extend ACROSS the river into Oregon. And debris can end up all along that space EXCEPT for the tiny speck that is actually Tena Bar. All because Robert99 deems it so.

You are proving yourself to be quite the prevaricator, Bob.

Poll

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1752211 times)

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Chaucer

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case