Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1826385 times)

Offline sailshaw

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
  • Thanked: 4 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #690 on: April 05, 2015, 09:30:16 AM »
Sutter:   Tom Kaye said    "Seems we were wrong about one huge thing.  As it turns out Boeing did use a lot of pure Ti in the SST. We ruled Boeing out early because we thought it was all alloyed. We are now talking with a Boeing Ti engineer that has been working there since  the 80's. That is the new best area for research."

This is what I tried to tell Tom a couple of years ago but he did not seem interested and that I was an Engineer at Boeing having started in 1961 and worked in the same building (9-101 bldg) that the Materials and Processing Lab was in on the 1st floor. I told Tom the M&P Lab was using pure Ti to flame spray the leading edges of the SST to give the edges higher temp and abrasion characteristics. Having both types of Ti in the scrap bins outside the Lab gave suspect Sheridan Peterson a lot of chances to get all the samples found on the DB tie as he had his office directly above the Lab in the same building and his tie could have brushed over the scrap as he looked through the interesting stuff in the tub skids as he passed by at least 4 times a day. The DB tie was a pointer to where he worked.
Bob Sailshaw

 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #691 on: April 05, 2015, 09:44:07 AM »
Thanks sailshaw, did the Boeing manufacturing plants make, or have a lot of machined work for all the employee's to have access to, or was some of the machinery only used by certain individuals?
 

Offline sailshaw

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
  • Thanked: 4 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #692 on: April 06, 2015, 10:17:15 AM »
Sutter:   you say  "Thanks sailshaw, did the Boeing manufacturing plants make, or have a lot of machined work for all the employee's to have access to, or was some of the machinery only used by certain individuals?"
The M&P Lab had all the things that were on DB's tie in their scrap tub skids including the curly-cue drilling scrap. They did welding Ti and machining Ti and the scraps all went into the tub skids
Bob Sailshaw
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #693 on: April 06, 2015, 10:22:08 AM »
Was the machinery used by all employee's, or were certain people on the machines?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 11:02:19 AM by shutter »
 

Offline smokin99

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #694 on: April 06, 2015, 11:30:47 PM »
I don't have time to go into this tonight, and I might prove myself wrong after I finish my document diving, but I'll put this out there for food for thought.
I have doubts that pure titanium was as rare in 1971 as has been portrayed, and I think that it might have been used in products and/or in research in industries other than those mentioned by CS website.

Like I said, I may very well be reading some things wrong, and will readily accept it if I am. I'd rather be accurate than right. But I'm wondering if this might be one more CS conclusion that is being repeated throughout the Cooper community as fact, when, maybe we should be looking at their conclusions and theories with a healthy dose of "prove it" scepticism, just as we do any other conclusions and theories put forth.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 11:31:27 PM by smokin99 »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #695 on: April 07, 2015, 12:40:33 AM »
A Russian sub was built in 1963. the hull was titanium, but it was Ti alloy. the sub still holds the underwater speed record. Her unofficial maximum speed, reached 30 March 1971, is 44.85 kn (51.61 mph; 83.06 km/h).

Jewelry was also, and still is made with titanium, but I'm not sure if it's alloy again...

ADDED: I can't copy/paste from this site, but they speak about pure ti in jewelry. see "titanium is very hard" section..

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 11:37:45 AM by shutter »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #696 on: April 07, 2015, 09:30:02 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't have time to go into this tonight, and I might prove myself wrong after I finish my document diving, but I'll put this out there for food for thought.
I have doubts that pure titanium was as rare in 1971 as has been portrayed, and I think that it might have been used in products and/or in research in industries other than those mentioned by CS website.

Like I said, I may very well be reading some things wrong, and will readily accept it if I am. I'd rather be accurate than right. But I'm wondering if this might be one more CS conclusion that is being repeated throughout the Cooper community as fact, when, maybe we should be looking at their conclusions and theories with a healthy dose of "prove it" scepticism, just as we do any other conclusions and theories put forth.
I am a skeptic of the the Citizen Sleuth's interpretations and conclusions concerning the work they have done on this case.  I do believe that the CS team gave it their best shot, and put a lot of effort into a case that had grown cold, which is admirable.  I like the idea of using the latest technology to analyze evidence in this case, but the interpretation of the results of the testing is where things got derailed, in my opinion.

I believe the people on the Citizen Sleuths team are brilliant.  I would hate to compare my IQ test scores with any of them.   But...we've all met very smart and highly educated people who can barely function socially or have an abundance of "book smarts", but nil "street smarts".  I need to look no further than the "Cooper's body on a freighter propeller" comment to see we have serious problems here.

After looking at the CS website and seeing the documentary that Shutter just posted, I still can't get a bead on what the CS's are saying about the Tena (Tina, Tuna, whatever) Bar money find.  ???  "The money was there before the dredging", "The money arrived within a year of it being discovered because of the rubber bands", WTF? 

As for the Tie-tanium, I think we can all agree the statements made on the CS website were pre-Google and we now understand the use of titanium  is much more widespread in the early 1970s than we've been led to believe.

As for the phantom missing, comic book reading, Hispanic, French Canadian, just laid off aerospace engineer, with no accent...well?  Where is he?  That's a fairly precise description of someone, don't you think?  If that person existed, don't you think he would have been located by now?

I could go on maligning the CS's, but what good would that do?  I think they did a decent job, and though I may disagree with their interpretation of things, I believe they created renewed interest in a case that had grown as cold as a block of ice.  That being said, we must ask ourselves,  what have their interpretations done to move the case forward?  Have their interpretations produced any results?  Has their description of a suspect produced any suspects at all?  Or, has their incorrect interpretation of the results of their work muddied the water, making the case less "solvable" than before?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #697 on: April 07, 2015, 12:04:54 PM »
Which documentary?
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #698 on: April 07, 2015, 12:42:41 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Which documentary?
"The Skyjacker who got Away" at the 30:03 mark.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:07:27 PM by nmiwrecks »
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #699 on: April 07, 2015, 01:43:42 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Which documentary?
"The Skyjacker who got Away" at the 30:03 mark.


I had to replace the video. the one that was originally there was taken down. you must of seen it just before they zapped it.

I have trouble following the statement made. the spoil appears to be about 75 yards from it's southern most tip to where the money was found. what we need is a 1975 photo. early 1975.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #700 on: April 07, 2015, 01:45:47 PM »
If the money came down the river, and wasn't dredged up, how did it got on the shore?
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #701 on: April 07, 2015, 01:56:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Which documentary?
"The Skyjacker who got Away" at the 30:03 mark.


I had to replace the video. the one that was originally there was taken down. you must of seen it just before they zapped it.

I have trouble following the statement made. the spoil appears to be about 75 yards from it's southern most tip to where the money was found. what we need is a 1975 photo. early 1975.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #702 on: April 07, 2015, 02:00:29 PM »
?????
I just replaced the bad link on it prior to commenting.....
 

Offline andrade1812

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 624
  • Thanked: 144 times
    • My Website
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #703 on: April 07, 2015, 04:34:09 PM »
Have to admit, when I first heard Kaye present the prop-snag hypothesis, I was incredulous. But...

Let's realize what Kaye's CS project accomplished:

1) Effectively disproved the Washougal Washdown theory. Kaye showed the Washougal was a poor transportation system for bundles of money, and bundles of money did not stay together for the trip. While it's still possible the entire bag was carried down the Washougal by floodwaters (as Kaye didn't test this), Kaye's other findings (flight path analysis) effectively end this theory.

2) The tie was likely Cooper's, and while few doubt this, Kaye further tied the tie to Cooper:

Quote
All of the stains examined showed elemental signatures of particles from safety matches similar to those shown in Figure 4. The stains, and in fact the Fig. 3 Comparison tie from the same period that had not been in storage for 40 years. Fewer particles are present on this tie even given its age. Fig. 3 Comparison tie from the same period that had not been in storage for 40 years. Fewer particles are present on this tie even given its age. vast majority of particles examined, had elemental compositions that were equivalent to match heads. This indicates that the owner of the tie was a smoker who did not typically use a lighter. Additionally, the type of match can be localized to paper book matches and not wood matches due to the lack of chlorine in wood matches [3]. These findings are completely consistent with the descriptions of D.B. Cooper as a chain smoker [4] that requested back the book of matches that the flight attendant, Tina Mucklow, used to light his cigarettes [5].

Thus, because of Kaye, we know the tie was worn frequently by a smoker who used book matches, not wood matches. This matches Cooper's description as a smoker who used book matches. While not definitive, it is a strong indication that the tie was not a thrift-store purchase or a stolen item.

3) Even if we find out unalloyed titanium was more common than Tom thought, the tie analysis is still invaluable as it shows the owner of the tie worked somewhere that machined unalloyed titanium, wearing a tie everyday. Even if this isn't helpful information in finding a suspect, it's damn helpful in eliminating suspects in a field with dozens of confessed Cooperites.

4) Kaye's analysis of the Tina Bar find is also invaluable. Even if Kaye is wrong about the money arriving before the '74 dredging, he conclusively proved Palmer was misled in his analysis as well. The clay layer was not caused by a dredge.

5) Kaye found no reasonable evidence to contradict the flight path or timing of the jump. Again, this does not conclusively prove the FBI flight path as correct, it does put the burden of proof on those who would adjust the jump's timing or flight path.

Kaye did not solve the Cooper case, but he did open up avenues of investigation. We now know the money had to stay in the canvas bag for a long period of time if there's any hope of it moving to Tina bar from farther up the Columbia. We can test how the Washougal and Columbia move a bag of money. We can test how the rubber bands will age inside the bag.

We can look at Cooper suspects and find out which ones match the particles found on the tie.

It's progress!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 04:37:02 PM by andrade1812 »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #704 on: April 07, 2015, 04:45:55 PM »
Good points, perhaps sometimes we are quick to judge. I for one can understand the ups, and downs of testing. I've had several false conclusions with tracing the flight path, and certainly don't want to steer someone in the wrong direction. I do get confused as to some of the things Kaye states. the one NMI pointed out in the recent documentary is one of them.