Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1747070 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6630 on: July 07, 2021, 11:52:39 AM »
I doubt it was planned out this well. Same for colored contacts...calling the crew reporting stairs won't go down part of the plan?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6631 on: July 07, 2021, 12:40:07 PM »
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It's obvious the stairs would raise and lock easily in the air. this has been known for a long time. the only way I see getting out of the plane unnoticed would be just prior to landing during slower speeds. the steps wouldn't move much under those conditions.

Alternatives have been used for years with this case on just about everything..

What is he referring to with the "combi 727"

Bill was president from 1983 to 1998. it's hard to say what he really knows. the steps will not lower and lock in flight unless you are at slower speeds. the wind will prevent this. if they did jump off the stairs, the would lower just like we have known for some time. that's partially but enough to jump from. they don't really need to lock down.

FlyJack has just posted the following (#63942) on DropZone (quoting FBI document DB Cooper 9095, which in turn quoted Boeing sources):

' "The environment near the aft entry door allowed it to be safely opened and the stair retracted at speeds up to 300 Knots." '

So Boeing apparently did some extensive testing related to the aft stairs opening in flight.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 12:45:15 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6632 on: July 07, 2021, 12:50:25 PM »
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It's obvious the stairs would raise and lock easily in the air. this has been known for a long time. the only way I see getting out of the plane unnoticed would be just prior to landing during slower speeds. the steps wouldn't move much under those conditions.

Alternatives have been used for years with this case on just about everything..

What is he referring to with the "combi 727"

Bill was president from 1983 to 1998. it's hard to say what he really knows. the steps will not lower and lock in flight unless you are at slower speeds. the wind will prevent this. if they did jump off the stairs, the would lower just like we have known for some time. that's partially but enough to jump from. they don't really need to lock down.

Is this what we are doing now just attacking everyone’s source? Give me some credit here...Bill was at SAT long before he became prez. Combi aircraft in commercial aviation are aircraft that can be used to carry either passengers as an airliner, or cargo as a freighter, and may have a partition in the aircraft cabin to allow both uses at the same time in a mixed passenger/freight combination. I can email the screen shots of our correspondents and you can judge for yourself. This guy knew his shit and was confident in what he was saying. I don’t see any reason for him to make either. Regardless if you don’t want to entertain the possibility cooper could of simulated a bump with manipulation of the hydraulic controls let’s focus on the bigger take away here and that’s know we know with certainty that there was a 727 out there well before the hijacking that cooper could of learned that the stairs could be deployed in flight. Before talking to Bill all we had as reference to this was that air America video showing a modified 727 with a sheet metal ramp. This bumps suspects with cia connections like Ted Braden and Howard hunt  up the list.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6633 on: July 07, 2021, 01:46:47 PM »
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It's obvious the stairs would raise and lock easily in the air. this has been known for a long time. the only way I see getting out of the plane unnoticed would be just prior to landing during slower speeds. the steps wouldn't move much under those conditions.

Alternatives have been used for years with this case on just about everything..

What is he referring to with the "combi 727"

Bill was president from 1983 to 1998. it's hard to say what he really knows. the steps will not lower and lock in flight unless you are at slower speeds. the wind will prevent this. if they did jump off the stairs, the would lower just like we have known for some time. that's partially but enough to jump from. they don't really need to lock down.

Is this what we are doing now just attacking everyone’s source? Give me some credit here...Bill was at SAT long before he became prez. Combi aircraft in commercial aviation are aircraft that can be used to carry either passengers as an airliner, or cargo as a freighter, and may have a partition in the aircraft cabin to allow both uses at the same time in a mixed passenger/freight combination. I can email the screen shots of our correspondents and you can judge for yourself. This guy knew his shit and was confident in what he was saying. I don’t see any reason for him to make either. Regardless if you don’t want to entertain the possibility cooper could of simulated a bump with manipulation of the hydraulic controls let’s focus on the bigger take away here and that’s know we know with certainty that there was a 727 out there well before the hijacking that cooper could of learned that the stairs could be deployed in flight. Before talking to Bill all we had as reference to this was that air America video showing a modified 727 with a sheet metal ramp. This bumps suspects with cia connections like Ted Braden and Howard hunt  up the list.

It was public information at the time the 727 went into service in 1964 that the aircraft had been test flown with the stairs deployed.  This includes a 1964 article in the British aviation magazine "Flight".
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6634 on: July 07, 2021, 04:47:27 PM »
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It's obvious the stairs would raise and lock easily in the air. this has been known for a long time. the only way I see getting out of the plane unnoticed would be just prior to landing during slower speeds. the steps wouldn't move much under those conditions.

Alternatives have been used for years with this case on just about everything..

What is he referring to with the "combi 727"

Bill was president from 1983 to 1998. it's hard to say what he really knows. the steps will not lower and lock in flight unless you are at slower speeds. the wind will prevent this. if they did jump off the stairs, the would lower just like we have known for some time. that's partially but enough to jump from. they don't really need to lock down.

Is this what we are doing now just attacking everyone’s source? Give me some credit here...Bill was at SAT long before he became prez. Combi aircraft in commercial aviation are aircraft that can be used to carry either passengers as an airliner, or cargo as a freighter, and may have a partition in the aircraft cabin to allow both uses at the same time in a mixed passenger/freight combination. I can email the screen shots of our correspondents and you can judge for yourself. This guy knew his shit and was confident in what he was saying. I don’t see any reason for him to make either. Regardless if you don’t want to entertain the possibility cooper could of simulated a bump with manipulation of the hydraulic controls let’s focus on the bigger take away here and that’s know we know with certainty that there was a 727 out there well before the hijacking that cooper could of learned that the stairs could be deployed in flight. Before talking to Bill all we had as reference to this was that air America video showing a modified 727 with a sheet metal ramp. This bumps suspects with cia connections like Ted Braden and Howard hunt  up the list.

I doubt C simulated anything or tried to hide his leaving the plane. He bailed when and where he wanted. No real evidence he had any other plan. Regardless of his knowledge base, he asked at the ticket counter if it was a 727 coming? Looks like he was looking for confirmation based on his plan to jump a 727. Had they said something else he probably would have disappeared with no hijacking ... nobody knows who or what he was including his background! But, you could go to any airport and see 727s operating ... the stairs etc. That information alone could give anyone entry into thinking they could take over an airplane and bail out the back of the 727. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 04:47:54 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6635 on: July 07, 2021, 05:45:20 PM »
Nicky, nobody is attacking you. the data is in question. you made the right call in contacting Bill, but clarification is required. that's why I suggested the possibility of an interview (podcast)

I posted the first public 302's years back and thought it would have fireworks. not many really responded about them. they just jumped in and read them and comments are made about them to this day..

Plenty of discussion with Cooper thinking the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit on the DZ years ago.
It's also known about raising the stairs in flight.they go up with no wind on the ground. it's always been the question surrounding the stairs being lowered. Boeing responds to the stairs opening at 300 knots. that doesn't imply they lock in place. the crew told McNally the stairs wouldn't open very far at 300 knots, so he agreed to reduce the speed.

I don't believe it's worth looking into Cooper trying to fool everyone with the stairs. that doesn't mean you can't look into it further. if you don't recall a guy was on Expedition Unknown with the same theory. The only way out the back unnoticed would be on approach when the plane is going slower and a less chance of detecting his departure. even that is a long distance to figure out where he bailed.

You have to ask why Cooper would bail out close to Reno and then plant money at Tbar..

This really wasn't some high tech crime. McNally, asked questions, did some recon and read up at the library. IMO, I think a lot of people use a very wide brush to paint this crime. McCoy had a chip on his shoulder wanting to prove he could get away with it. took some time but it ended up killing him in the long run.

I simply asked what a combi 727 was...typically, they are 727 QC (quick change) note the reply you gave?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 05:50:43 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6636 on: July 07, 2021, 06:26:18 PM »
Nicky's information is interesting and brings a lot of possibilities. This shows that with a bit of familiarity, jumping from the stairs isn't a problem. Cooper's 'trouble with the stairs' well could be a red herring. The pressure bump wouldn't necessarily need for the stairs to slam shut, they would just need to significantly impede the airflow for a moment. This might be done by raising and lowering them quickly, as NB pointed out. And I believe at least one report does have the panel light flashing at the bump. As he also pointed out, once the crew believed Cooper had gone, they might be less attentive to subsequent 'bumps'. Flight is a fluid environment, there are a lot of fluctuations, bumps, turbulences. It's also possible that Cooper wouldn't need to be at the bottom of the stairs to jump, perhaps he could have exited from partway down. It's not KNOWN exactly what Cooper did, so any speculation is valid. 'Believing' or 'doubting' something doesn't make it fact.

---

(Apparently not.)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 08:55:31 PM by dudeman17 »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6637 on: July 07, 2021, 06:35:15 PM »
Carr posted the picture of the stuntman jumping from the plane. I have it on one of my computers and it's been posted here multiple times. I believe they did different speeds. he mentions 150 knots was the fastest he would try the stunt.

Blevins stated for years in the interview Skipp did but was mistaken on what Rataczak said. I did read it somewhere else.

A 727 needs to be found that can allow the stairs to be tested to see if they can move in between functions (up/down) without jamming the lever. I believe it's on a pulley system. the outer controls are right under the upper controls..
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 06:35:57 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6638 on: July 07, 2021, 06:40:09 PM »
I don't believe the stairs are locked in the photo of the stuntman..the angle is wrong.

The struts lock off center. brackets are at the top to stop the upper arm from moving any further forward locking it in place.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 07:48:43 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6639 on: July 07, 2021, 07:57:54 PM »
I found the picture I've had showing the stuntman leaving the stairs. it's brighter and you can see the brackets where the arms go when fully extended..
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6640 on: July 07, 2021, 09:47:04 PM »
It's hard to say how fast the plane was going in the movie. the stairs only retract a couple feet, if that. they don't come close to closing as seen in the test photo's. 150 was the fastest the stuntman would jump, so it could be less than that.

..
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6641 on: July 07, 2021, 11:22:18 PM »
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It's hard to say how fast the plane was going in the movie. the stairs only retract a couple feet, if that. they don't come close to closing as seen in the test photo's. 150 was the fastest the stuntman would jump, so it could be less than that.

..


The force of retraction may be dependent on the speed of the aircraft and the force of the slipstream against the stairs? ( pressure of the slipstream air) ? Just a guess.  Does the hydraulic system cushion or control retraction ?    Does this mean we still dont understand how the stairs worked on the evening of the hijacking! ?  ;)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 11:25:10 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6642 on: July 07, 2021, 11:42:17 PM »
The slower the plane is moving the lower the stairs will descend. the max speed was 150 for the stunt.

We know at speeds of 170 the weight removed on the stairs caused it to almost close.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6643 on: July 07, 2021, 11:50:35 PM »
The test was able to reproduce what they seen, felt and heard.

The lever will jerk once the stairs are locked. it appears to be tied into the stairs actions, possibly a wired pulley system. some of the controls function with wires. this is why I question the ability to change the command.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6644 on: July 07, 2021, 11:55:11 PM »
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The slower the plane is moving the lower the stairs will descend. the max speed was 150 for the stunt.

We know at speeds of 170 the weight removed on the stairs caused it to almost close.

Thats my understanding also.

If at 170km the slipstream forces the stairs closed (eight inches has been quoted) then however the stair system works the force of the slipstream must overcome whatever the hydraulic or other parts of the system are doing.  Was that documented in the test? I think FJ posted some FBI doc that said the test confirmed it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 12:00:40 AM by georger »