Ground winds are only used for takeoff and landing conditions..winds aloft can differ from the ground.

The gauges in testing look like a clock at the top and possibly vertical speed in the center and the bottom gauge could be a cabin rate indicator..it has two needles..see what R99 thinks..


The two gauges on the engineer's panel measure pressure. one gauge measure's PSID, this is the gauge that tells the pressure inside the cabin vs outside. (differential pressure..lbs per sq. inch} it also shows the altitude.

The second gauge is the climb rate indicator which measures in feet per minute vs square inch.

The gauges in testing look familiar to a set of gauges found in a DC-3/C47. it's apparent the set was taken out of an aircraft since they don't really need the clock. instrument panels were made different ways. some have separate gauges that can be removed and some have panels with multiple gauges that puzzle together. I would guess they had a lot of gauges in the hangers..

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Do you have the winds aloft for Ariel? Battleground? Orchards? Portland?

Please share.

As I have mentioned to you several times before, you need to visit the FAA's web page and download and read their free publications on aviation weather and aircraft navigation.  You seem to have an aversion to doing basic research.

Any 16-year-old boy or girl who has taken a ground school course to prepare for the private pilot written examination could serve as a tutor for you.

Cool.

So the answer to my question is “no”.

The answer to your original question is the winds aloft for the four close locations you name will be the same for all practical purposes.

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Do you have the winds aloft for Ariel? Battleground? Orchards? Portland?

Please share.

N

As I have mentioned to you several times before, you need to visit the FAA's web page and download and read their free publications on aviation weather and aircraft navigation.  You seem to have an aversion to doing basic research.

Any 16-year-old boy or girl who has taken a ground school course to prepare for the private pilot written examination could serve as a tutor for you.

Cool.

So the answer to my question is “no”.

The answer to your original question is the winds aloft for the four close locations you name will be the same for all practical purposes.

No, my original question is what were the winds aloft near Ariel, Battleground, Orchards, and Portland the night of the hijacking? What direction were they blowing and how many knots?

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Keep in mind that they were doing very gentle turns, not even at a standard two-minute turn rate...  ...In my opinion, the airflow change over the rear part of the fuselage and the stairs would be absolutely minimal during these turns. 

I think someone posed a question regarding how the aircraft turning might affect the 'oscillations' or 'pressure bumps', and that is what I was addressing. You're right in that if Chaucer was considering the 'winds aloft', that that is irrelevant. But the plane certainly banks into the RELATIVE wind as it turns. In a turn, you throw a bit of bank, a bit of 'up' pitch, and use the rudder to keep from climbing. To whatever degree there is 'up' pitch, there would be increased air pressure on the bottom of the tail. That would affect how the door/stairs might move. However minimal or subtle that might be.

Agree - obviously true. Are the turn and experience of oscillations etc in tandem. I dont think so based on Sluggo's timeline. Docs show Boeing conducted numerous tests on the 727-100 rear stair design including wind tunnel tests. Engineers that were members of the Boeing sky dive club got involved in the stair performance analysis after the hijacking, and it appears Boeing fed info to the pilots during the hijacking on how to operate their stairs - some of that info was communicated directly to Cooper who was having problems getting the stair down! Boeing was aware of 'all' aspects of the stair performance system including cabin pressure effects when the 'stair assembly "subbers" break their seal with the surrounding housing'....  the stairs were riding on a cushion of high velocity air (the slipstream) when Cooper jumped and during the sled test! ........ the stairs have a resonant frequency which is a function of the velocity of the aircraft. The stairs produce both a mechanical resonance and a cabin pressure acoustic issue when the 'snubber' seal is broken. (no surprise in any of this). Extreme decibel exposure from the rear engines was a known factor (noted by Mucklow) which Cooper had to deal with once the rear door was open. That safety hazard is noted in FAA reports ...           

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Do you have the winds aloft for Ariel? Battleground? Orchards? Portland?

Please share.

N

As I have mentioned to you several times before, you need to visit the FAA's web page and download and read their free publications on aviation weather and aircraft navigation.  You seem to have an aversion to doing basic research.

Any 16-year-old boy or girl who has taken a ground school course to prepare for the private pilot written examination could serve as a tutor for you.

Cool.

So the answer to my question is “no”.

The answer to your original question is the winds aloft for the four close locations you name will be the same for all practical purposes.

No, my original question is what were the winds aloft near Ariel, Battleground, Orchards, and Portland the night of the hijacking? What direction were they blowing and how many knots?

As previously stated, the winds at 10,000 feet in the Portland area (which includes Ariel, Battleground, and Orchards) at the time the airliner was passing through were from the southwest at 30 to 35 Knots.

Source?

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The "relative wind" is the airflow velocity vector...

There you go with the textbooks and slide rules again. Here's a more basic and personal experience of the relative wind - Take your car out on the highway, and when you get up to speed, stick your hand out the window. That's the relative wind. Hold your hand flat against it, cup it, arch into it. Hold your hand knife-edged into it, and vary the angle. Feel the results of all that. Relative wind.

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The "relative wind" is...  ahead of the aircraft and it always stays ahead of the aircraft.

Nope. It continues on and envelops the aircraft. It's then left somewhat disheveled behind it. Wake turbulence, or 'burble'.

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You don't turn into it.

Absolutely you do.

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The airplane turns because it is banked.

The airplane turns because the flight control surfaces exert influence on the relative wind, changing the aircraft's angle of attack on the relative wind, effecting the turn. Roll, pitch, and yaw, 'bank' being 'roll'.

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...the rudder is used to keep the turn coordinator instrument, or the old needle-ball instrument, centered.

The instruments do not cause the flight. They measure the results of it. Did the Wright brothers have one of those needle-ball thingamajigs? Do birds? Did Chuck Yeager fly as well as he did because he had superior knowledge of the instruments? Sure, he did have superior knowledge of the instruments and engineering and what-not, but he flew as well as he did because he had an intuitive, seat-of-his-pants feel for it.


--------


To me, relative wind is not some theory happening outside the window, that I'm influencing by pushing levers and reading instruments. No, it's my playground (and one of my offices). I bathe in it. Every inch of my body is a flight control surface. The relative wind is my mistress. I throw myself upon her, I caress her, and she caresses me back. She's been my first love for over forty years, and I know her intimately, as well as anyone on (above) the planet.

basic physics at work! I love it!  Kudos...   

Interesting posts by avionic engineer Dee Waldron back in 2015:  (rear stairs & Cooper survival)

Nov 7, 2015 at 5:25am   
Quote
 
Post by Dee Waldron - HJG on Nov 7, 2015 at 5:25am
Personally, I don't think he survived the jump. Actually, knowing what I know based on my experience with the 727, and as an aeronautics engineer... I strongly doubt he could have exited the airplane alive. There's just no way.

But it's a hell of good story! 

Dee


Nov 8, 2015 at 1:55am   
Quote
 
Post by Dee Waldron - HJG on Nov 8, 2015 at 1:55am
Yeah Herman, you're on the right track about that video and image. The aircraft has been modified to allow the jumper to safely exit. Now, remember that point.

On that particular version of the 727 (from the actual hijacking), the rear stairs are gravity operated. There are two gas operated "snubbers" that slow the drop down action so it doesn't slam the tarmac when the latch is released. They also make it easier to lift up the stairs to latch the hatchway closed.

>>Would it actually be possible to lower those stairs with the aircraft flying even at minimum flying speed with full flaps???<<
I'm pretty sure the answer is NO. The stairs could be unlatched from inside, but I am of the opinion that the slipstream would prevent the stairs from opening. However, Cooper's extra weight on the stairs as he tried to crawl out may have opened it just enough for him to get sucked out into the rear draft (the low pressure bubble behind any aircraft). IMHO, that is where he met his demise. I just can't for the life of me, see how he could have survived that.

After that hijacking, many 727s had their rear stairs fitted with a simple mod popularly know as the "Cooper Vane". This little aerodynamic generator kept the stairs firmly closed, even if it was unlatched in flight.

The Cooper hijacking, along with Eastern's ghost story and the comedy movie "Airplane" were the most talked about subjects in the coffee break rooms during my years at AA. 

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Bravo posts about CIA missions with the 727:

BravoOne
Posts: 4094
•   #17
6 years ago
An interesting experiment was done by the US Army with CIA oversight where they removed the cabin to stairway door (AKA refrigerator door) and had jumpers launch off the stairway in flight. At about 140Kts, flaps 20 you could get about four guys on the stairway and it would float in an open position with enough stability to launch the guys safely or at least within the acceptable risk zone. The problem of course was when the stairway only had one or two guys on it the tendency for it to drift up became problematic. I saw this done with a ATA 727 and later saw good film footage made using a Pan Am 727-100 filmed from both inside and outside the aircraft.

The ATA flights were done down in Marana. Don't know where the Pan Am flights occurred or if this was ever put to use. Very risky business when involve airliners in military ops IMO.

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Interesting posts by avionic engineer Dee Waldron back in 2015:  (rear stairs & Cooper survival)

Nov 7, 2015 at 5:25am   
Quote
 
Post by Dee Waldron - HJG on Nov 7, 2015 at 5:25am
Personally, I don't think he survived the jump. Actually, knowing what I know based on my experience with the 727, and as an aeronautics engineer... I strongly doubt he could have exited the airplane alive. There's just no way.

But it's a hell of good story! 

Dee


Nov 8, 2015 at 1:55am   
Quote
 
Post by Dee Waldron - HJG on Nov 8, 2015 at 1:55am
Yeah Herman, you're on the right track about that video and image. The aircraft has been modified to allow the jumper to safely exit. Now, remember that point.

On that particular version of the 727 (from the actual hijacking), the rear stairs are gravity operated. There are two gas operated "snubbers" that slow the drop down action so it doesn't slam the tarmac when the latch is released. They also make it easier to lift up the stairs to latch the hatchway closed.

>>Would it actually be possible to lower those stairs with the aircraft flying even at minimum flying speed with full flaps???<<
I'm pretty sure the answer is NO. The stairs could be unlatched from inside, but I am of the opinion that the slipstream would prevent the stairs from opening. However, Cooper's extra weight on the stairs as he tried to crawl out may have opened it just enough for him to get sucked out into the rear draft (the low pressure bubble behind any aircraft). IMHO, that is where he met his demise. I just can't for the life of me, see how he could have survived that.

After that hijacking, many 727s had their rear stairs fitted with a simple mod popularly know as the "Cooper Vane". This little aerodynamic generator kept the stairs firmly closed, even if it was unlatched in flight.

The Cooper hijacking, along with Eastern's ghost story and the comedy movie "Airplane" were the most talked about subjects in the coffee break rooms during my years at AA. 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Bravo posts about CIA missions with the 727:

BravoOne
Posts: 4094
•   #17
6 years ago
An interesting experiment was done by the US Army with CIA oversight where they removed the cabin to stairway door (AKA refrigerator door) and had jumpers launch off the stairway in flight. At about 140Kts, flaps 20 you could get about four guys on the stairway and it would float in an open position with enough stability to launch the guys safely or at least within the acceptable risk zone. The problem of course was when the stairway only had one or two guys on it the tendency for it to drift up became problematic. I saw this done with a ATA 727 and later saw good film footage made using a Pan Am 727-100 filmed from both inside and outside the aircraft.

The ATA flights were done down in Marana. Don't know where the Pan Am flights occurred or if this was ever put to use. Very risky business when involve airliners in military ops IMO.

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Did Dee know that other hijackers had survived their jumps? (Now that I've read the thread, it appears he or she did not)

I believe Dee has a point: "Would it actually be possible to lower those stairs with the aircraft flying even at minimum flying speed with full flaps???<<
I'm pretty sure the answer is NO. The stairs could be unlatched from inside, but I am of the opinion that the slipstream would prevent the stairs from opening. However, Cooper's extra weight on the stairs as he tried to crawl out may have opened it just enough for him to get sucked out into the rear draft ..."

The sled test photos using 200lb show the stairs are not fully down, but at about 30 degrees... vs 40-45 degrees when full open on the ground. If Cooper encountered the same problem then I wonder if he had enough clearance to stand up on the bottom stair, stair 15? There are 15 stairs on that stair assembly.

Image: Positions where a six foot man would stand at 30d vs 45d opening ....