Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1676443 times)

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6480 on: May 30, 2021, 12:49:33 AM »
Was there any pressure bumps recorded in any of the other copy cat skyjackings?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6481 on: May 30, 2021, 02:15:33 AM »
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I believe Boeing told them the stairs would only open to a certain degree..

Here is some info from Aviation Exchange

That the airstair didn't lock down when deployed indicates that it never fully extended. It is likely that the air loads simply prevented full extension. The airstair hydraulic actuators were not designed with the strength necessary to overcome a 170-knot airstream, especially on early 727s. The extension was limited by the airspeed and subject to fluctuations with changes in the airstream and the weight of Cooper upon the stair.

The aft airstair was partially deployed for the duration of the approach and landing.
The transcripts of ATC communications between NW305 and various ground stations are freely available (and a fascinating read). The relevant communications (with Reno) begin on PDF page 87 (numbered 213). Below are the mentions of the airstairs from that point on, with times given in PST, 1971-11-24. I added the text in brackets for clarity.

22:35, NW305: OKAY AH WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE CONTACT WITH [Cooper in] THE BACK [of the airplane] NOW AND AH WE'RE GOING TO GET THESE STEPS UP BEFORE WE CAN MAKE OUR LANDING...

22:43, RENO: NORTHWEST THREE ZERO FIVE WHAT'S THE STATUS ON THE STAIRS NOW SIR

22:43, NW305: AH WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF ANYBODY [in the back of the plane] YET UH TRYING TO CONTACT HIM AND THEY'RE STILL DOWN SO I WE HAVEN'T DECIDED YET AH WE MIGHT COME IN AND LAND WITH THEM DOWN THERE'D BE SOME SPARKS SO

22:48, NW305: APPROACH AH THREE ZERO FIVE WE CAN'T SEEM TO RAISE HIM BACK THERE WE KIND OF HATE TO WE'D JUST AS SOON LAND WITH THE THING HANGING DOWN IT ISN'T ALL THE WAY DOWN AND THEN PROBABLY WON'T HAVE ANY PRESSURE ON IT SO WE HOPE IT'LL (unintelligible) FREE...

22:57, NW305: ...WE'RE NOW MARKER INBOUND AND UH AH WE'RE GOING TO BE LANDING WITH THE AIR STAIR IN THE DOWN POSITION AH WE DON'T SEEM TO GET ANY RESPONSE FROM OUR FRIEND IN THE BACK

[The aircraft touches down and is taxiing.]

23:03, NW305: SEE ANY SPARKS COMING OFF THE TAIL AT ANY TIME ON AH TOUCHDOWN

23:03, RENO: NEGATIVE NONE AT ALL THE ONLY THING THAT'S VISIBLE ON THE TAIL IS LIGHT AH APPARENTLY ON YOUR RAMP

23:03, NW305: ROGER UNDERSTAND STAIR LAMPS AH STAIR LIGHTS

23:03, RENO: I DO SEE SOME AH SPARKS NOW JUST A FEW AH TRAILING YOU AH AS YOU'RE TAXIING IN

23:03, NW305: OUR AH PASSENGER TRIED TO DISEMBARK

23:03, RENO: I STILL DON'T AH GETTING A FEW SPARKS NOT VERY MANY AT ALL

23:03, NW305: OKAY WE'LL TRY TO SLOW OUR TAXIING HERE AS MUCH AH IT PROBABLY IS DRAGGIN AH

Why did the crew not retract the airstair before landing?
The airstair can only be operated from two positions: one in the main cabin and one on the exterior of the aircraft. It cannot be operated from the flight deck. The testimony of Tina Mucklow, the flight attendant whom Cooper interacted with almost exclusively, reveals that

Approximately four minutes after takeoff, [Cooper] stood up, told [Mucklow] to go to the cockpit and close the first-class curtains, and for no one to come out from behind the curtains.

It should be noted that the airstair was still closed and locked at this point. In fact, it was Cooper himself who performed the deployment:

...he asked her to demonstrate to him the procedure for opening the rear door and extending the stairway. She did this and was under the impression that he understood how to do it. She commented that it occured to her at this time that this was the only function of the aircraft which she had discussed with the hijacker during the time she had been with him which he did not seem to be fully aware of.

Even though before Mucklow left Cooper in the cabin "...she pleaded with him to take the bomb with him and he said he would take it with him or disarm it...", nobody could be sure, so complying with his demand for no one to enter the cabin was the obvious choice. Even after the crew suspected he had jumped, there was still some chance that he was present. That—on top of the clearly dangerous situation of being unrestrained in an airborne jet transport with a door open—compelled the crew to sit tight in the cockpit and land with whatever configuration they could control from there. Indeed, third officer and right-seater on the flight Bill Rataczak stated that

...no member of the crew departed from the cockpit to check on the presence of the hijacker following the arrival in the compartment of hostess Mucklow, who had locked the door behind her.

How did the airstair remain partially deployed on its own?
The airstair is in contact with the tarmac when deployed on the ground. In fact, it's designed to essentially wedge itself against the ground and act as a tail stanchion to keep the airplane from tipping backward during loading and unloading. Early 727s such as N467US had mechanical locks for the airstair in both the extended and retracted positions to accomplish this function.

However, the crew had evidence that the airstair was not locked, as Mucklow "observed the red indicator light go on the [flight engineer's] panel indicating that the stairs had been lowered." On the 727-100, that light would be de-energized only if the airstair was locked either up or down. (On the -200, a green light was added to indicate a fully extended and locked position.) The ATC transcript indicates the captain's later belief that the airstair wasn't "all the way down", so it's reasonable to assume the warning light remained illuminated.

That the airstair didn't lock down when deployed indicates that it never fully extended. It is likely that the air loads simply prevented full extension. The airstair hydraulic actuators were not designed with the strength necessary to overcome a 170-knot airstream, especially on early 727s. The extension was limited by the airspeed and subject to fluctuations with changes in the airstream and the weight of Cooper upon the stair.

The inability to fully extend the airstair in flight was even known on the ground beforehand, as the transcript of communications between NW305 and the airline's base at MSP reveal (I cleaned these up):

18:38, MSP: DON'T KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN AN INTERMEDIATE POSITION.

18:40, NW305: ...STAIRS WILL OPEN ABOUT 20 DEGREES AT 120 KNOTS. IS THAT ENOUGH FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO ESCAPE THE AIRCRAFT?

18:40, MSP: WITH HIM ON STAIRS WILL OPEN POSSIBLY ENOUGH FOR HIM TO GET OUT. REMAIN UNPRESSURIZED. BE IN LANDING CONFIGURATION WITH FLAPS. SLOW TO [APPROACH] SPEED BEFORE TRYING TO EXTEND STAIRS.

As it turns out, the stair could not be opened much if at all at 170 knots during a climb, and the captain had to "have 'er about down to a hundred and sixty knots" and level off at 7,000 feet to get the resistance low enough. It makes sense that a higher angle of attack would cause a greater air load on the door due to the increased frontal area. It also makes sense that the airflow alone would be insufficient at any speed to completely re-close the door due to the geometry of the empennage, the weight of the stair, and some hydraulic damping. Once the door was open, the crew were able to climb again to 10,000 feet and keep the airspeed "in the vicinity of one seventy, one eighty [knots]".

The above comments plus Shutter's comments are absolutely correct.  Doubters should take a look at the photos from the chase aircraft during the FBI tests which completely support the above.

Exactly what problem Cooper was having in getting the stairs unlocked is not clear.  But after being unlocked, unless the residual hydraulic pressure prevented otherwise, the end of the stairs should have dropped about a foot or so from the closed position.

After Cooper got the stairs unlocked, they were not locked either up or down for the remainder of the flight to Reno.  And there is no way that they are going to be locked down in a 225 MPH slipstream.  Cooper's problem suggests that he didn't know very much, if anything, about aerodynamics.

As Shutter also points out, you don't mess around with 130 MPH hurricanes or high-speed slipstreams. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6482 on: May 30, 2021, 04:28:46 AM »
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I believe Boeing told them the stairs would only open to a certain degree..

Here is some info from Aviation Exchange

That the airstair didn't lock down when deployed indicates that it never fully extended. It is likely that the air loads simply prevented full extension. The airstair hydraulic actuators were not designed with the strength necessary to overcome a 170-knot airstream, especially on early 727s. The extension was limited by the airspeed and subject to fluctuations with changes in the airstream and the weight of Cooper upon the stair.

The aft airstair was partially deployed for the duration of the approach and landing.
The transcripts of ATC communications between NW305 and various ground stations are freely available (and a fascinating read). The relevant communications (with Reno) begin on PDF page 87 (numbered 213). Below are the mentions of the airstairs from that point on, with times given in PST, 1971-11-24. I added the text in brackets for clarity.

22:35, NW305: OKAY AH WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE CONTACT WITH [Cooper in] THE BACK [of the airplane] NOW AND AH WE'RE GOING TO GET THESE STEPS UP BEFORE WE CAN MAKE OUR LANDING...

22:43, RENO: NORTHWEST THREE ZERO FIVE WHAT'S THE STATUS ON THE STAIRS NOW SIR

22:43, NW305: AH WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF ANYBODY [in the back of the plane] YET UH TRYING TO CONTACT HIM AND THEY'RE STILL DOWN SO I WE HAVEN'T DECIDED YET AH WE MIGHT COME IN AND LAND WITH THEM DOWN THERE'D BE SOME SPARKS SO

22:48, NW305: APPROACH AH THREE ZERO FIVE WE CAN'T SEEM TO RAISE HIM BACK THERE WE KIND OF HATE TO WE'D JUST AS SOON LAND WITH THE THING HANGING DOWN IT ISN'T ALL THE WAY DOWN AND THEN PROBABLY WON'T HAVE ANY PRESSURE ON IT SO WE HOPE IT'LL (unintelligible) FREE...

22:57, NW305: ...WE'RE NOW MARKER INBOUND AND UH AH WE'RE GOING TO BE LANDING WITH THE AIR STAIR IN THE DOWN POSITION AH WE DON'T SEEM TO GET ANY RESPONSE FROM OUR FRIEND IN THE BACK

[The aircraft touches down and is taxiing.]

23:03, NW305: SEE ANY SPARKS COMING OFF THE TAIL AT ANY TIME ON AH TOUCHDOWN

23:03, RENO: NEGATIVE NONE AT ALL THE ONLY THING THAT'S VISIBLE ON THE TAIL IS LIGHT AH APPARENTLY ON YOUR RAMP

23:03, NW305: ROGER UNDERSTAND STAIR LAMPS AH STAIR LIGHTS

23:03, RENO: I DO SEE SOME AH SPARKS NOW JUST A FEW AH TRAILING YOU AH AS YOU'RE TAXIING IN

23:03, NW305: OUR AH PASSENGER TRIED TO DISEMBARK

23:03, RENO: I STILL DON'T AH GETTING A FEW SPARKS NOT VERY MANY AT ALL

23:03, NW305: OKAY WE'LL TRY TO SLOW OUR TAXIING HERE AS MUCH AH IT PROBABLY IS DRAGGIN AH

Why did the crew not retract the airstair before landing?
The airstair can only be operated from two positions: one in the main cabin and one on the exterior of the aircraft. It cannot be operated from the flight deck. The testimony of Tina Mucklow, the flight attendant whom Cooper interacted with almost exclusively, reveals that

Approximately four minutes after takeoff, [Cooper] stood up, told [Mucklow] to go to the cockpit and close the first-class curtains, and for no one to come out from behind the curtains.

It should be noted that the airstair was still closed and locked at this point. In fact, it was Cooper himself who performed the deployment:

...he asked her to demonstrate to him the procedure for opening the rear door and extending the stairway. She did this and was under the impression that he understood how to do it. She commented that it occured to her at this time that this was the only function of the aircraft which she had discussed with the hijacker during the time she had been with him which he did not seem to be fully aware of.

Even though before Mucklow left Cooper in the cabin "...she pleaded with him to take the bomb with him and he said he would take it with him or disarm it...", nobody could be sure, so complying with his demand for no one to enter the cabin was the obvious choice. Even after the crew suspected he had jumped, there was still some chance that he was present. That—on top of the clearly dangerous situation of being unrestrained in an airborne jet transport with a door open—compelled the crew to sit tight in the cockpit and land with whatever configuration they could control from there. Indeed, third officer and right-seater on the flight Bill Rataczak stated that

...no member of the crew departed from the cockpit to check on the presence of the hijacker following the arrival in the compartment of hostess Mucklow, who had locked the door behind her.

How did the airstair remain partially deployed on its own?
The airstair is in contact with the tarmac when deployed on the ground. In fact, it's designed to essentially wedge itself against the ground and act as a tail stanchion to keep the airplane from tipping backward during loading and unloading. Early 727s such as N467US had mechanical locks for the airstair in both the extended and retracted positions to accomplish this function.

However, the crew had evidence that the airstair was not locked, as Mucklow "observed the red indicator light go on the [flight engineer's] panel indicating that the stairs had been lowered." On the 727-100, that light would be de-energized only if the airstair was locked either up or down. (On the -200, a green light was added to indicate a fully extended and locked position.) The ATC transcript indicates the captain's later belief that the airstair wasn't "all the way down", so it's reasonable to assume the warning light remained illuminated.

That the airstair didn't lock down when deployed indicates that it never fully extended. It is likely that the air loads simply prevented full extension. The airstair hydraulic actuators were not designed with the strength necessary to overcome a 170-knot airstream, especially on early 727s. The extension was limited by the airspeed and subject to fluctuations with changes in the airstream and the weight of Cooper upon the stair.

The inability to fully extend the airstair in flight was even known on the ground beforehand, as the transcript of communications between NW305 and the airline's base at MSP reveal (I cleaned these up):

18:38, MSP: DON'T KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN AN INTERMEDIATE POSITION.

18:40, NW305: ...STAIRS WILL OPEN ABOUT 20 DEGREES AT 120 KNOTS. IS THAT ENOUGH FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO ESCAPE THE AIRCRAFT?

18:40, MSP: WITH HIM ON STAIRS WILL OPEN POSSIBLY ENOUGH FOR HIM TO GET OUT. REMAIN UNPRESSURIZED. BE IN LANDING CONFIGURATION WITH FLAPS. SLOW TO [APPROACH] SPEED BEFORE TRYING TO EXTEND STAIRS.

As it turns out, the stair could not be opened much if at all at 170 knots during a climb, and the captain had to "have 'er about down to a hundred and sixty knots" and level off at 7,000 feet to get the resistance low enough. It makes sense that a higher angle of attack would cause a greater air load on the door due to the increased frontal area. It also makes sense that the airflow alone would be insufficient at any speed to completely re-close the door due to the geometry of the empennage, the weight of the stair, and some hydraulic damping. Once the door was open, the crew were able to climb again to 10,000 feet and keep the airspeed "in the vicinity of one seventy, one eighty [knots]".

The above comments plus Shutter's comments are absolutely correct.  Doubters should take a look at the photos from the chase aircraft during the FBI tests which completely support the above.

Exactly what problem Cooper was having in getting the stairs unlocked is not clear.  But after being unlocked, unless the residual hydraulic pressure prevented otherwise, the end of the stairs should have dropped about a foot or so from the closed position.

After Cooper got the stairs unlocked, they were not locked either up or down for the remainder of the flight to Reno.  And there is no way that they are going to be locked down in a 225 MPH slipstream.  Cooper's problem suggests that he didn't know very much, if anything, about aerodynamics.

As Shutter also points out, you don't mess around with 130 MPH hurricanes or high-speed slipstreams.

Cooper's problem suggests that he didn't know very much, if anything, about aerodynamics.

What it proves is that you have a bad habit of projection - projecting your thoughts on other people. People would have done this or that - people should have done this or that. Had you been Cooper I wonder what you actually would have done!  ;)

Now you will probably make some idiotic comment about me - odds are.  :)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 04:29:53 AM by georger »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6483 on: May 30, 2021, 09:28:52 AM »
Odds are if he did not survive the damn jump they would have found something like some big red cylinders or a briefcase or a bunch of money.  My money is on him making it.  After that?  Who knows
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6484 on: May 30, 2021, 09:42:10 AM »
The aft stairs in that video are so stiff that not even 200 mph winds are going to cause it to flop around and more to the point, Cooper leaving the plane isn’t going to cause them to spring back up to nearly closing. Now, if what Shutter says is accurate and those stairs are malfunctioning then I’d like to see stairs operated in good condition.

For me, this isn’t about locking or not. It’s about springing up and causing the pressure bump. The stairs in that video do not appear to be “springy”.

“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6485 on: May 30, 2021, 10:18:17 AM »
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The aft stairs in that video are so stiff that not even 200 mph winds are going to cause it to flop around and more to the point, Cooper leaving the plane isn’t going to cause them to spring back up to nearly closing. Now, if what Shutter says is accurate and those stairs are malfunctioning then I’d like to see stairs operated in good condition.

For me, this isn’t about locking or not. It’s about springing up and causing the pressure bump. The stairs in that video do not appear to be “springy”.

This is not even open for debate. The FBI test drops over the Pacific with N467US itself clearly show that the airstairs spring back to nearly flush with the fuselage after the jump.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6486 on: May 30, 2021, 10:40:53 AM »
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The aft stairs in that video are so stiff that not even 200 mph winds are going to cause it to flop around and more to the point, Cooper leaving the plane isn’t going to cause them to spring back up to nearly closing. Now, if what Shutter says is accurate and those stairs are malfunctioning then I’d like to see stairs operated in good condition.

For me, this isn’t about locking or not. It’s about springing up and causing the pressure bump. The stairs in that video do not appear to be “springy”.

This is not even open for debate. The FBI test drops over the Pacific with N467US itself clearly show that the airstairs spring back to nearly flush with the fuselage after the jump.
I’m aware of that. However, the aft stairs in the video that Nicky B shared would not behave this way. So, is it that these aft stair are malfunctioning? Or is there another explanation?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6487 on: May 30, 2021, 12:21:53 PM »
The video recently shown shows the stairs partially coming down. it appears the plane might of been sitting for a period from when it was shutdown (engine wise) the hydraulics will last about 30 minutes after shutdown. a new plane off the line would do the same if no pressure is in the lines.

The stairs do not operate as seen in this video. they go up and down easily when the hydraulics are applied.

The last second shows someone at the controls on the exterior. he either tried to lower them or possibly used the pump. I've never seen the pump used to lower them..
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 12:40:10 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6488 on: May 30, 2021, 12:37:50 PM »
you could get your car and open the door all the way...should be easy. now, put your seat belt on tight and hit 90 and try the same. the wind will win..
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6489 on: May 30, 2021, 02:26:25 PM »
Quote
Now, if what Shutter says is accurate and those stairs are malfunctioning then I’d like to see stairs operated in good condition.

I presented a video showing the stair functioning up and down...

The lever was obviously left in the down position. sparks were seen from the stairs on the taxi. as the plane slowed down on approach the stairs got lower and lower until they were almost locked but were dragging on the runway once they plane was at taxi speed.

Here is the video again. you can hear a knock when the stairs lock and unlock...

..
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 02:29:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6490 on: May 30, 2021, 03:35:44 PM »
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The aft stairs in that video are so stiff that not even 200 mph winds are going to cause it to flop around and more to the point, Cooper leaving the plane isn’t going to cause them to spring back up to nearly closing. Now, if what Shutter says is accurate and those stairs are malfunctioning then I’d like to see stairs operated in good condition.

For me, this isn’t about locking or not. It’s about springing up and causing the pressure bump. The stairs in that video do not appear to be “springy”.



This is not even open for debate. The FBI test drops over the Pacific with N467US itself clearly show that the airstairs spring back to nearly flush with the fuselage after the jump.

You mean this ?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 03:36:21 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6491 on: May 30, 2021, 11:40:36 PM »
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The aft stairs in that video are so stiff that not even 200 mph winds are going to cause it to flop around and more to the point, Cooper leaving the plane isn’t going to cause them to spring back up to nearly closing. Now, if what Shutter says is accurate and those stairs are malfunctioning then I’d like to see stairs operated in good condition.

For me, this isn’t about locking or not. It’s about springing up and causing the pressure bump. The stairs in that video do not appear to be “springy”.



This is not even open for debate. The FBI test drops over the Pacific with N467US itself clearly show that the airstairs spring back to nearly flush with the fuselage after the jump.

You mean this ?
This is not even open for debate.            tire size provides an independent scale for all measurements .
. . . . .
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 11:49:46 PM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6492 on: May 30, 2021, 11:56:57 PM »
If the aft stairs in Nicky’s video are malfunctioning or being deployed improperly, then that’s understandable. However, if not, then there is no way those stairs would bounce up as needed to create a pressure bump.

That’s all I’m saying.
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6493 on: May 31, 2021, 03:53:11 AM »
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If the aft stairs in Nicky’s video are malfunctioning or being deployed improperly, then that’s understandable. However, if not, then there is no way those stairs would bounce up as needed to create a pressure bump.

That’s all I’m saying.

The plane is moving at around 170 kts. If the stairs are able to retract, then the high pressure slipstream alone will force the stairs up. That was demonstrated in the test. 

That is what this discussion about air pressure is about! I can hardly believe this is being discussed.  Just calculate the air pressure!  :rofl:  This is ludicrous.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 04:05:48 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6494 on: May 31, 2021, 04:57:17 AM »
Looks like a bounce to me.