Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1783710 times)

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6240 on: March 11, 2021, 07:26:52 AM »
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I received this info from John Madinger, who an Economic Crimes Adviser for the US Treasury regarding laundering the money.

Anyhow, Cooper. I heard he got 200 grand and they found some of it later, a relatively small amount. Laundering that amount of money wouldn't be very hard. All you need, really, is time, which either got a lot of or none at all. Money launderers face problems with two situations. One is that you have to launder a one-time, large quantity of cash (usually). The other is that you have to launder an ongoing revenue stream. They're different problems with different solutions, but if you've got a lot of time, you can launder a lot of money. $200,000 isn't that much, even back in 1971, even in a one-shot deal. 10,000 $20 bills weigh exactly ten kilos or 22 pounds, and the $20 note is much more commonly used in general circulation than the $100. Further, and this isn't widely known but I wonder if D B might have known it, in 1971, Federal Reserve Banks were routinely tracking $100 notes, at least in large transactions. I don't know how it was done, but they could tell by serial number which bank had sent which bill to the local FRB. This actually tripped up some of the Watergate conspirators. You'll remember that some of the Watergate burglars had cash - $100 bills - on their persons when they were arrested. The FBI traced that money back through the FRB Atlanta branch in Miami to a South Florida bank where it had been deposited by somebody in Nixon's re-election campaign. (Simplifying things a bit, but you get the picture.) Anyhow, the FRBs weren't doing it with $20 bills but one presumes that they had the capability to at least note the serial numbers when they came through because they were doing it with the hundreds in large transactions.

But Cooper's got $200,000 of very, very hot money. How does he use it without having it traced back to him? Here are three possibilities just offhand.
1) He could do it all at once, by essentially fencing it, selling it to someone at a discount. The hot money then becomes someone else's problem and DB walks away with a (considerably smaller) quantity of spendable cash. You'd have to be pretty confident about your fence, however, assured that the person if/when caught wouldn't tell the cops where he'd come by the ransom money. Here's a scenario that might work out well for DB, though not so much for his fence: DB arranges with an associate to sell $200,000 at a substantial discount, say 50 percent. The fence brings the $100,000 to the meet and DB kills him. Then he takes the $200,000 in ransom money out into the forest and seeds it around the place, so if anybody finds it, they'll think he lost it in the jump or died out in the forest. He goes to Maui and lives happily ever after with $100,000 in clean money and none of the ransom notes ever turn up in circulation.
2) DB has an associate who works in a bank. The two of them devise some plan to slide the ransom money into the bank's cash without passing through a teller who might check the serial numbers. The money goes into circulation and can't be traced back to DB or probably even the bank. The problem with this scenario is that eventually, those bills are going to go through another bank or end up at an FRB branch and be detected there. It may take a while, but someday they'll turn up. The advantages are that it would be very difficult to trace back to DB and that he'd probably have more of the $200,000. Maybe he'd only have to pay 15 or 20 percent for the banking service. The disadvantages are that the FBI is inevitably going to catch on and figure out where the stream is. And of course, you've got a live confederate who may be persuaded to talk when the FBI arrives on her door. Still, money launderers love banks, and I'd call this the Scarface Solution because it's how Al Pacino laundered all his coke money in the movie. It's also the one used by Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in real life when they had a problem exactly like DB's. (Incredibly similar, really, even though it was 70 years earlier.)
3) DB just sits on the cash for a long time, the longer the better, and doesn't put any of it in circulation. Ten or maybe even five years later, nobody's looking nearly as hard, and he can just spend it here and there in dribs and drabs, being careful not to do large transactions (over $10,000) that might be reported to the government or that might require him to provide ID. Travel around, spread the money out over a big area and a long time, you could probably go a while without getting caught. Again, though, those bills are eventually going to pop up on the FBI's screen It's my understanding that none ever have.

A really classic example of a very similar situation is Bruno Richard Hauptmann, who New Jersey fried in 1936 for kidnapping the infant son of Charles Lindbergh. Hauptmann got a ransom of $50,000. Not only were the serial numbers recorded (by the Treasury Department's Intelligence Unit, NOT the FBI), but the Treasury people insisted on including some larger denomination gold certificates, knowing that the government was planning to stop issuing those and recall those in circulation when the US went off the gold standard. This made certain parts of the ransom very distinctive and made spending it more difficult. The government circulated a complete list of all of the serial numbers to banks across the country and a couple of years later, a teller picked up on one of the bills that had been used at a gas station. The gas station attendant had written the customer's license number on the note, that led back to Hauptmann, and he was on his way to the electric chair.  From what I read, the Cooper ransom notes were all "unmarked" but mostly from a certain FRB and series, and each bill was copied. Although the numbers were later widely circulated, none have ever been found. That wasn't the case with Hauptmann's ransom, however. Bank tellers had been spotting the notes for almost the whole time, and Treasury had been making a map of where the bills had been spent. Most of the locations were in New York City, primarily in the Bronx, and this turned out to be where Hauptmann was living. He was using the money to make lifestyle purchases, spending a $20 ransom note on a $2 purchase and getting $18 in clean money back, for example. Since he had a lot of time and didn't use the money on purchases requiring identification, like buying a car or investing in a brokerage account, or depositing it into his own bank account, he could go on like that almost indefinitely. And over time. the tellers would have gotten less diligent about checking.

So, there are a few of my observations without knowing a whole lot about the case. Personally, I think he didn't make it, which is why none of the bills ever made it into circulation. But I can see at least one scenario (#1 above) that might explain that and have DB surviving and getting to spend at least some money.

End quote.

I was hoping to get him on the show, but I’m thankful for this info.

What is the mechanism? Who or what would have found these bills? He's saying they definitely would have been found... who or what was checking billions of bills throughout the 70s and 80s?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6241 on: March 11, 2021, 11:24:59 AM »
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I've been looking into the placard/marker for the past couple days. Hominid told me in a email years ago that most of the planes with the emergency option were cargo planes. just about every plane having the system found were 727-100c. those would be the conversion planes. a large cargo door can be seen on the port side of the aircraft along with looking up the registration number or "N" number. 305 shows 727-51 while a conversion shows 727-22c

The first 727's didn't have the system. this was added later. I assumed it was originally installed and faded out. I'm not even sure the first years had any controls in the stairwell. several documents show where the controls are for the aft stairs and how to operate them. they only show the exterior of the plane having this function. it's also pointed out on the port side of the aircraft. possibly, the ground crew was used to open and close them until the controls were installed in the stairwell. this also explains why a placard is in place directing you to the opposite side of the aircraft for the controls. they were moved.

All the models found were from the years 1966 to 1968. a lot of them appear to have the placard over the access door that was on the port side so you can read the placard when approaching the plane to raise or lower the stairs from the ground. one model was found that wasn't a conversion. this was turned into a luxury aircraft with the N number N30MP and was a 727-21 manufacture in 1966.

Boeing wouldn't need to sell kits for the emergency function if they were direct from the manufacture on all 727-100's from the first day of manufacture. The first commercial flight was February 1,1964 with Eastern airlines flying from Miami to Philadelphia. 305 was an early model with the first flight in 1965.

This doesn't resolve much but gets us closer to understanding a few things and questioning other things. I've only seen one document about two emergency controls inside and outside. most only refer to the normal controls inside and outside. the failure of seeing the placard/marker on any aircraft is also frustrating viewing dozens of planes and zooming in for a look.

I'm not fully satisfied with all the documents, 302's about the placard. yes, I question whether or not 305 actually had the function. it's looking more and more that it didn't.

Flyjack, can you post the document surrounding the emergency option where they explain it's not on all the planes. I can't find the document in my files...I'm interested in the year of the document and the amount of kits which I recall were just under a hundred. only 572 727-100's were made.

Regarding the placard I have to say that there are many unanswered questions.Chief among them:

1) I was told by parts distributor that it came from within the back airstairs cone area.
2) The FBI (meaning the Sheriff working with an FBI agent) reported that it came from 305 and required the door being open to fall out.
3) How the FBI could overlook the fact that 305 didn't even possess the emergency release system utilizing the red T-handle--this would be complete incompetence.

That said, looking at everything that everyone has been able to procure about the system--pics, instructions, schematics--does not appear to show 305 with this system. Therefore, in light of the many other errors the FBI has made in this case, I think it is reasonable to deduce that this is yet another FBI error. Simply put, it doesn't appear to me that the Hicks' placard came from 305. Therefore, cannot be used or considered a credible piece of evidence.

I have no idea where this, apparently interior, placard came from and cannot explain what appears to be a colossal F-up on the part of the FBI, accept to say I've seen this before.             
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 11:25:56 AM by EU »
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6242 on: March 11, 2021, 02:13:14 PM »
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I've been looking into the placard/marker for the past couple days. Hominid told me in a email years ago that most of the planes with the emergency option were cargo planes. just about every plane having the system found were 727-100c. those would be the conversion planes. a large cargo door can be seen on the port side of the aircraft along with looking up the registration number or "N" number. 305 shows 727-51 while a conversion shows 727-22c

The first 727's didn't have the system. this was added later. I assumed it was originally installed and faded out. I'm not even sure the first years had any controls in the stairwell. several documents show where the controls are for the aft stairs and how to operate them. they only show the exterior of the plane having this function. it's also pointed out on the port side of the aircraft. possibly, the ground crew was used to open and close them until the controls were installed in the stairwell. this also explains why a placard is in place directing you to the opposite side of the aircraft for the controls. they were moved.

All the models found were from the years 1966 to 1968. a lot of them appear to have the placard over the access door that was on the port side so you can read the placard when approaching the plane to raise or lower the stairs from the ground. one model was found that wasn't a conversion. this was turned into a luxury aircraft with the N number N30MP and was a 727-21 manufacture in 1966.

Boeing wouldn't need to sell kits for the emergency function if they were direct from the manufacture on all 727-100's from the first day of manufacture. The first commercial flight was February 1,1964 with Eastern airlines flying from Miami to Philadelphia. 305 was an early model with the first flight in 1965.

This doesn't resolve much but gets us closer to understanding a few things and questioning other things. I've only seen one document about two emergency controls inside and outside. most only refer to the normal controls inside and outside. the failure of seeing the placard/marker on any aircraft is also frustrating viewing dozens of planes and zooming in for a look.

I'm not fully satisfied with all the documents, 302's about the placard. yes, I question whether or not 305 actually had the function. it's looking more and more that it didn't.

Flyjack, can you post the document surrounding the emergency option where they explain it's not on all the planes. I can't find the document in my files...I'm interested in the year of the document and the amount of kits which I recall were just under a hundred. only 572 727-100's were made.

Regarding the placard I have to say that there are many unanswered questions.Chief among them:

1) I was told by parts distributor that it came from within the back airstairs cone area.
2) The FBI (meaning the Sheriff working with an FBI agent) reported that it came from 305 and required the door being open to fall out.
3) How the FBI could overlook the fact that 305 didn't even possess the emergency release system utilizing the red T-handle--this would be complete incompetence.

That said, looking at everything that everyone has been able to procure about the system--pics, instructions, schematics--does not appear to show 305 with this system. Therefore, in light of the many other errors the FBI has made in this case, I think it is reasonable to deduce that this is yet another FBI error. Simply put, it doesn't appear to me that the Hicks' placard came from 305. Therefore, cannot be used or considered a credible piece of evidence.

I have no idea where this, apparently interior, placard came from and cannot explain what appears to be a colossal F-up on the part of the FBI, accept to say I've seen this before.             

It would not be the first time. 302s and FBI interviews have been a blessing and a curse all at the same time. We may have the same thing going on with the money story. Carr vs Himmelsbach vs Pringle vs. Bank employees vs. what the Ingrams actually found. That's why independent research is necessary. It's not personal.   
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6243 on: March 14, 2021, 12:49:53 PM »
@Darren if you happen to see this post.  I did not want to quote your entire post, too long. 

Do you know if Richard McCoy ever revealed how he was going to launder his money? And speaking of McCoy, I doubt he received $20 bills like DB Cooper?  He had more than two times the take ($500,000) and imagine the weight of that?  I know they did not catch him right away, and he only spent about $30 ( poor bastard), but he had to have had a plan?  I am guessing your first option, the fence?  But like you say, you need someone you trust, IE, you have to have a good connection.  Your option of him having a friend working in a bank, is a long shot. Who is going to risk their job and neck on that one unless he is getting half the take. It would be very risky with co workers all over.  But McCoy?  I wonder?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6244 on: March 14, 2021, 07:24:04 PM »
Yo, Fan Man, have you read Calame and Rhodes' book? They offer a detailed analysis of McCoy and his hijacking.

Based upon their writings, it doesn't appear that McCoy had much of a plan on what to do with the money once he landed: Laundering it Vegas or elsewhere, selling it to a fence, etc. Further, Calame never discussed any of these scenarios - not with me or in any of his interviews.

It's an interesting absence of questioning.
 

Offline Darren

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6245 on: March 14, 2021, 08:40:25 PM »
Bruce beat me to it, but I agree with him. I haven’t heard anything about what McCoy planned to do with this he money, but I do know his ransom was in 100s.
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6246 on: March 15, 2021, 12:20:08 AM »
Darren, whaddaya think we need to do to get Larry Carr on the Vortex, and also down at CooperCon? Time for political favors????

I know a guy, who knows a guy....
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6247 on: March 16, 2021, 05:54:22 PM »
Pretty straightforward question for the long termers on here:

How do we know the times along the flight path are accurate? For example, how do we know that 305 was near Lake Merwin at 8:10? Or at Battle Ground at 8:13? Or Orchards at 8:15? Etc.
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6248 on: March 16, 2021, 06:17:48 PM »
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Pretty straightforward question for the long termers on here:

How do we know the times along the flight path are accurate? For example, how do we know that 305 was near Lake Merwin at 8:10? Or at Battle Ground at 8:13? Or Orchards at 8:15? Etc.

I'll relay my experience with this.

The radio transcripts provide some data to work with that helps determine the veracity of the time stamps, but it becomes very difficult the further the flight progresses.

I analyzed the first leg from Seattle to Toledo and in my opinion it appears to be accurate--meaning the Toledo/Maylay turn was executed (not sure if it started or completed) at 7:59.

From there on it becomes much more difficult. Even the yellow FBI Flight Path Map is missing the 20:04 (8:04) time stamp for some reason.

That said, I believe we can be reasonably certain that at 8:13, 305 was about as far south as Tena Bar regardless of the path flown. To be clear, the jet may have been a few miles north of the precise latitude of the money find at 8:13.

As to when it would have been adjacent to PDX...I think we're talking 3 minutes or so later.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6249 on: March 16, 2021, 08:02:50 PM »
So really it comes down to the few pings from the DME along the way, and then pair that up with the radio transmissions and accompanying time?

We also have velocity reports every so often that could be added to the calculation too, right?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6250 on: March 17, 2021, 12:48:22 AM »
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So really it comes down to the few pings from the DME along the way, and then pair that up with the radio transmissions and accompanying time?

We also have velocity reports every so often that could be added to the calculation too, right?

The times embedded in the Seattle and Oakland ATC radio transcripts are GMT times and are accurate to the second.  The other times are for various clocks and timepieces and probably vary a bit from one to the other.

When speaking of "velocity reports" you must be very careful to determine exactly what "velocity" is being considered.  Is it Indicated Airspeed, True Airspeed, or Ground Speed?  Unless you can't determine Ground Speed from other means, then you absolutely must know the winds aloft velocity and direction.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6251 on: March 17, 2021, 10:25:44 AM »
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So really it comes down to the few pings from the DME along the way, and then pair that up with the radio transmissions and accompanying time?

We also have velocity reports every so often that could be added to the calculation too, right?

This is an interesting question.

I assume the time plots are garnered from a variety of sources--FDR, transcripts, ATC communication, SAGE(?).

All of that said, how then is there a missing plot at 20:04? I have actually considered that this may be the by-product of an F-106 circling back around. Just don't know.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6252 on: March 17, 2021, 02:12:44 PM »
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So really it comes down to the few pings from the DME along the way, and then pair that up with the radio transmissions and accompanying time?

We also have velocity reports every so often that could be added to the calculation too, right?

This is an interesting question.

I assume the time plots are garnered from a variety of sources--FDR, transcripts, ATC communication, SAGE(?).

All of that said, how then is there a missing plot at 20:04? I have actually considered that this may be the by-product of an F-106 circling back around. Just don't know.
I agree. We have all kind of taken the times given to use for granted, but - speaking for myself - I never considered WHERE those times originated from and more importantly, how accurate they are.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6253 on: March 17, 2021, 02:44:54 PM »
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So really it comes down to the few pings from the DME along the way, and then pair that up with the radio transmissions and accompanying time?

We also have velocity reports every so often that could be added to the calculation too, right?

This is an interesting question.

I assume the time plots are garnered from a variety of sources--FDR, transcripts, ATC communication, SAGE(?).

All of that said, how then is there a missing plot at 20:04? I have actually considered that this may be the by-product of an F-106 circling back around. Just don't know.
I agree. We have all kind of taken the times given to use for granted, but - speaking for myself - I never considered WHERE those times originated from and more importantly, how accurate they are.

The missing 20:24 (or 8:04 PM) time is missing on the so-called FBI plot is because they didn't have a radar return for that minute.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6254 on: March 17, 2021, 04:33:25 PM »
In reading about DME, it says this:

“The accuracy of DME ground stations is 185 m (±0.1 nmi).[8] It's important to understand that DME provides the physical distance between the aircraft antenna and the DME transponder antenna. This distance is often referred to as 'slant range' and depends trigonometrically upon the aircraft altitude above the transponder as well as the ground distance between them.

For example, an aircraft directly above the DME station at 6,076 ft (1 nmi) altitude would still show 1.0 nmi (1.9 km) on the DME readout. The aircraft is technically a mile away, just a mile straight up. Slant range error is most pronounced at high altitudes when close to the DME station.”

So even with the DME there is a certain margin of error it seems. Add in the missing minute on the flight path and the times become less precise. Also, with the plane traveling at a relatively consistent speed of 165 knots then you are looking at 2.75 NM per minute. Most people seem to say 3 NM per minute. This could also make the flight times even more imprecise.

I know this has probably been discussed ad nauseum on here, but this is all new to me. Perhaps putting together a map with more accurate times plotted would be beneficial?
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