Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1674201 times)

Offline dblea88

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6060 on: February 09, 2021, 06:17:48 PM »
I did a side-by-side pic of Richard Lepsy and the composite sketch of the Unsolved Mysteries that Florence Schaffner described.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 06:18:10 PM by dblea88 »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6061 on: February 09, 2021, 06:24:56 PM »
I need to correct a bit of information, and that is about the location of ripcord handles on pilot emergency rigs. On modern ones, the handle is on the left, consistent with sport reserve handles. But back in the days of front-mount reserves, I was under the impression that they were on the right, consistent with sport mains. That was mistaken. Something caused me to re-think that, so I dug a little, and consulted a rigger friend. Turns out that on backpack pilot bailout rigs, the ripcord handle has always been on the left. With that in mind, not sure what the modification would have been that Cossey claimed to have made. The pictures of Hayden's rig, the handle is up by the shoulder. Perhaps it was originally lower on the harness.

Oops, sorry.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6062 on: February 10, 2021, 02:58:04 PM »
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I need to correct a bit of information, and that is about the location of ripcord handles on pilot emergency rigs. On modern ones, the handle is on the left, consistent with sport reserve handles. But back in the days of front-mount reserves, I was under the impression that they were on the right, consistent with sport mains. That was mistaken. Something caused me to re-think that, so I dug a little, and consulted a rigger friend. Turns out that on backpack pilot bailout rigs, the ripcord handle has always been on the left. With that in mind, not sure what the modification would have been that Cossey claimed to have made. The pictures of Hayden's rig, the handle is up by the shoulder. Perhaps it was originally lower on the harness.

Oops, sorry.

Unless I am mistaken (dont think I am) ... Cossey's original claim was 'the chute was his for his personal use and he modified the ripcord handle 'for himself' - something only HE would know. He claimed the chute was his personal chute rigged for himself (only) - that the chute was sent to Cooper by mistake. Cossey never mentioned Hayden at all.

Behind all of this the FBI has its own version of who supplied the chutes and the name Hayden is in play!

If Cossey was rigging/packing a chute for a customer Hayden, why would he change the ripcord handle to some non-standard configuration at all! ?

Cossey's story never did add up. If the chute always belonged to Hayden and not to Cossey, then Cossey is lying, or leaving out vital facts at least in his public statements.  (and crazier than a bedbug!)  If Cossey's role with the chute given to Cooper was only as rigger for a chute belonging to Hayden, why would Cossey twist the story for the public claiming he was the "owner" of the chute given Cooper?  I assume Hayden paid Cossey for his repacking/rigging job - is that verified? 
   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 04:08:57 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6063 on: February 10, 2021, 04:39:58 PM »
When I spoke with Coss in 2009, he said the NB-6/NB-8 was his personal parachute. He also said that he had made significant modifications to it, such as relocating the ripcord and putting the handle in a pocket.

As a result, he said the handle would be hard for a whuffo to find, and the "pull" would be a two-directional effort - out and up, away from the shoulder, and then upwards. He reiterated that a whuffo would have trouble with that two-step process.

Cossey further claimed that he sent the NB-6/NB-8, and a personal "luxury civilian" main, to DB Cooper as per Al Lee's direct request.

Note: Cossey changed the NB designation every time I talked with him, alternating between an NB-6 and an NB-8. Initially he said it was an NB-6 overstuffed with a 28-foot canopy. By the time of our last phone call, circa 2012, he said it was an NB-8, filled with a regular 28-foot chute.

As for Hayden, Cossey never mentioned him until I did in our last phone conversation when I asked about the controversy of who owned what. At that time, Coss said Hayden was "full of shit."

Hayden, for his part, told me that he had never met Cossey, nor had they ever spoken. How Hayden got his chutes packed by Cossey was never explained by either gentleman.

When I told Hayden that Cossey was saying that he (Hayden) was FoS, Norman replied, "Well, Cossey is full of beans." Norman continued and said that he wanted no drama with Cossey, and soon afterwards broke off all communication with me.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 04:52:11 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6064 on: February 10, 2021, 05:34:42 PM »
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Unless I am mistaken (dont think I am) ... Cossey's original claim was 'the chute was his for his personal use and he modified the ripcord handle 'for himself' - something only HE would know. He claimed the chute was his personal chute rigged for himself (only) - that the chute was sent to Cooper by mistake. Cossey never mentioned Hayden at all.

Behind all of this the FBI has its own version of who supplied the chutes and the name Hayden is in play!

If Cossey was rigging/packing a chute for a customer Hayden, why would he change the ripcord handle to some non-standard configuration at all! ?

Cossey's story never did add up. If the chute always belonged to Hayden and not to Cossey, then Cossey is lying, or leaving out vital facts at least in his public statements.  (and crazier than a bedbug!)  If Cossey's role with the chute given to Cooper was only as rigger for a chute belonging to Hayden, why would Cossey twist the story for the public claiming he was the "owner" of the chute given Cooper?  I assume Hayden paid Cossey for his repacking/rigging job - is that verified? 
   

Part of my original error was seeing the location of Hayden's ripcord and thinking that it had been modified. If Cossey's statements about a modified ripcord pertained to his own rig, then so be it.

In general theory, it would be possible, and not all that unusual, for a customer to ask his rigger for such a modification. Body type combined with the confines of his particular cockpit, and personal preference, might warrant a ripcord mod. Such a mod would have to be performed by a rigger to be legal. And sure, the customer would pay the rigger for his work, much as one pays a mechanic for working on a car.

It sounds like Cossey made a lot of questionable, conflicting statements. It sounds like he didn't take a lot of people too seriously, and perhaps made off statements to jerk peoples' chains. It seems clear that the FBI got two back rigs from Hayden. It seems less clear, but possible, whether they got any from Cossey, and if so, which ones were actually given to Cooper.

A modified ripcord location making for a difficult pull doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Most harnesses are of pretty similar construction. Ripcord handles are generally on the main lift web, that's the part of the harness that goes over your shoulder, down past your ribs, and into the hip juncture. Not really an alternative option for that, just higher or lower. They are all in a pocket, that's what holds them in place. Those pockets were elastic, at some point they became velcro-closed. Most ripcord housings go over the shoulder, and the ripcord is best pulled in a downward fashion. Not many, but some housings come from lower on the side, from about the bottom of your ribs, and the ripcord would be better pulled in an upwards direction. An experienced jumper would note the difference. Someone with no experience wouldn't KNOW the difference. In either case, the user would just note how it is and pull accordingly.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 05:57:35 PM by dudeman17 »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6065 on: February 10, 2021, 10:43:58 PM »
The lack of 302's stating extra chutes being in evidence is nowhere to be seen. Dudeman could be right that they described the pilot chute failing to crossover the dimensions correctly by stating it was 24 feet vs 24 inches. the front chute was already open and probably wasn't taken by the National Guard to examine. it's open.

The confusing Part seems to be the serial numbers. when you look at the document I recently posted marked Doc 2
it describes the chutes found on the plane and has them listed by letters ( E & F) ...If they had 3 chutes they would have the letters E, F and G. why would they list a chute as evidence if it wasn't there. Vegas would not know of the extra chutes left in Seattle.

The parts not underlined are more info about the chutes and explain they were found on the plane. Dudeman also points out they describe the inside of the chute or the "integral part". the funny thing is they read the card just as they did Haydens rigging card with the info being one line off on the card. "type 60-9707 and SN  7/60. which appears to be wrong like it's written on Hayden's rigging card.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6066 on: February 10, 2021, 11:30:04 PM »
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When I spoke with Coss in 2009, he said the NB-6/NB-8 was his personal parachute. He also said that he had made significant modifications to it, such as relocating the ripcord and putting the handle in a pocket.

As a result, he said the handle would be hard for a whuffo to find, and the "pull" would be a two-directional effort - out and up, away from the shoulder, and then upwards. He reiterated that a whuffo would have trouble with that two-step process.

Cossey further claimed that he sent the NB-6/NB-8, and a personal "luxury civilian" main, to DB Cooper as per Al Lee's direct request.

Note: Cossey changed the NB designation every time I talked with him, alternating between an NB-6 and an NB-8. Initially he said it was an NB-6 overstuffed with a 28-foot canopy. By the time of our last phone call, circa 2012, he said it was an NB-8, filled with a regular 28-foot chute.

As for Hayden, Cossey never mentioned him until I did in our last phone conversation when I asked about the controversy of who owned what. At that time, Coss said Hayden was "full of shit."

Hayden, for his part, told me that he had never met Cossey, nor had they ever spoken. How Hayden got his chutes packed by Cossey was never explained by either gentleman.

When I told Hayden that Cossey was saying that he (Hayden) was FoS, Norman replied, "Well, Cossey is full of beans." Norman continued and said that he wanted no drama with Cossey, and soon afterwards broke off all communication with me.

Twp diff stories - Hayden, for his part, told me that he had never met Cossey, nor had they ever spoken. How Hayden got his chutes packed by Cossey was never explained by either gentleman.

Either Cossey packed Hayden's chutes or he didn't.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 11:31:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6067 on: February 10, 2021, 11:35:47 PM »
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Unless I am mistaken (dont think I am) ... Cossey's original claim was 'the chute was his for his personal use and he modified the ripcord handle 'for himself' - something only HE would know. He claimed the chute was his personal chute rigged for himself (only) - that the chute was sent to Cooper by mistake. Cossey never mentioned Hayden at all.

Behind all of this the FBI has its own version of who supplied the chutes and the name Hayden is in play!

If Cossey was rigging/packing a chute for a customer Hayden, why would he change the ripcord handle to some non-standard configuration at all! ?

Cossey's story never did add up. If the chute always belonged to Hayden and not to Cossey, then Cossey is lying, or leaving out vital facts at least in his public statements.  (and crazier than a bedbug!)  If Cossey's role with the chute given to Cooper was only as rigger for a chute belonging to Hayden, why would Cossey twist the story for the public claiming he was the "owner" of the chute given Cooper?  I assume Hayden paid Cossey for his repacking/rigging job - is that verified? 
   

Part of my original error was seeing the location of Hayden's ripcord and thinking that it had been modified. If Cossey's statements about a modified ripcord pertained to his own rig, then so be it.

In general theory, it would be possible, and not all that unusual, for a customer to ask his rigger for such a modification. Body type combined with the confines of his particular cockpit, and personal preference, might warrant a ripcord mod. Such a mod would have to be performed by a rigger to be legal. And sure, the customer would pay the rigger for his work, much as one pays a mechanic for working on a car.

It sounds like Cossey made a lot of questionable, conflicting statements. It sounds like he didn't take a lot of people too seriously, and perhaps made off statements to jerk peoples' chains. It seems clear that the FBI got two back rigs from Hayden. It seems less clear, but possible, whether they got any from Cossey, and if so, which ones were actually given to Cooper.

A modified ripcord location making for a difficult pull doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Most harnesses are of pretty similar construction. Ripcord handles are generally on the main lift web, that's the part of the harness that goes over your shoulder, down past your ribs, and into the hip juncture. Not really an alternative option for that, just higher or lower. They are all in a pocket, that's what holds them in place. Those pockets were elastic, at some point they became velcro-closed. Most ripcord housings go over the shoulder, and the ripcord is best pulled in a downward fashion. Not many, but some housings come from lower on the side, from about the bottom of your ribs, and the ripcord would be better pulled in an upwards direction. An experienced jumper would note the difference. Someone with no experience wouldn't KNOW the difference. In either case, the user would just note how it is and pull accordingly.

Cossey's claim the chute given and used by Cooper was "his personal chute" is either true or false. It seems likely Cossey and the FBI discussed this ...  If they didn't discuss it then there is no practical way for Cossey to know what chute Cooper used.   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6068 on: February 10, 2021, 11:35:59 PM »
The packing card shows he packed Hayden's chute. Hayden said he never spoke with the FBI so how did they get the description of his chute, NWO?

Opening the chute at the museum is the only answer to all of the misinformation..
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6069 on: February 11, 2021, 07:26:43 AM »
Quote
Cossey's claim the chute given and used by Cooper was "his personal chute" is either true or false. It seems likely Cossey and the FBI discussed this ...  If they didn't discuss it then there is no practical way for Cossey to know what chute Cooper used. 

We can at least have confidence that Seattle had nothing to do with searching the plane. Vegas will document what was found after the plane landed. If Hayden's chutes were still in Seattle nothing would be in the list of evidence made by Las Vegas agents. 50 chutes could of been in Seattle.

It's odd how they describe the front chute with no error's. obviously they read the markings on the chute. where is the packing card for the front chute? the back chute found reads like what's on the card from Hayden's chute. the second portion on the evidence list also reads like it's from a packing card made by Cossey having the information written incorrectly like reading a separate or different card. no history of Hayden's chute is on the card because it's a fresh/new card.

Hayden claims he got the chute back in the early 80's while a 302 says he got it back in 1975. we see a 11 year gap noted on the packing card from 71 to 82 and a 4 year gap from 82 to 1986. who had the repacks done in the 80's is hard to tell since it's not clear when the chute was returned or who had it repacked. Hayden kept the chute 7 years before repacking it? very confusing..
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6070 on: February 11, 2021, 03:40:00 PM »
I believe the "Infamous America Podcast" of DB Cooper is the best audio over view of the case.  The narrator is excellent.  He also does a fabulous job on the 1919 Black Sox scandal, when the Chicago White Sox fixed the world series.  Its like 8 parts.   The Cooper Podcast is 3 I believe.  If you have not listened I would say do it.  It really puts you there.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6071 on: February 11, 2021, 04:22:19 PM »
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I believe the "Infamous America Podcast" of DB Cooper is the best audio over view of the case.  The narrator is excellent.  He also does a fabulous job on the 1919 Black Sox scandal, when the Chicago White Sox fixed the world series.  Its like 8 parts.   The Cooper Podcast is 3 I believe.  If you have not listened I would say do it.  It really puts you there.

I like the Oak Island Mystery on that History channel. Where they have held spell bound viewers in total rapture for years, figuring out what rocks and coconut fibres are! The Holy Sepulchre, Arc of the Covenant, Knights Templar gold, Shakespeare's papers, and the golden toe rings of Queen Nefertiti all are there just waiting to be found except for secret tunnels that let sea water in on Sacred Searchers. Spanish and French and Viking and even prehistoric ships of the KnuKnu Tribe brought it all there, on Tuesday 4004BC.       
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6072 on: February 11, 2021, 07:34:32 PM »
Just listened through those podcasts, high production value... Covers the entire case with an inch of depth. Not sure members on this board would benefit...
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6073 on: February 12, 2021, 12:20:04 PM »
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Just listened through those podcasts, high production value... Covers the entire case with an inch of depth. Not sure members on this board would benefit...

The Infamous America podcasts?  Anyway, I think its really good as there is so much junk out there also.  Myself, I do not buy that he died in the jump.  If he was not able to deploy the chute, and no matter whether he hit land or water, that suitcase is going to be smashed open.  Red cylinders would be all over the place whether the bomb was real or not and most of us believe it was a fake.  A good looking fake of course.  Had to make believers out of them.  I am a firm believer he survived the jump.  Whether he was one of the many suspects?  Who knows.  It would be something if he were found alive.  The money is the only key now.  No Raleigh butts so the money has to be found.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6074 on: February 12, 2021, 12:58:17 PM »
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Just listened through those podcasts, high production value... Covers the entire case with an inch of depth. Not sure members on this board would benefit...

The Infamous America podcasts?  Anyway, I think its really good as there is so much junk out there also.  Myself, I do not buy that he died in the jump.  If he was not able to deploy the chute, and no matter whether he hit land or water, that suitcase is going to be smashed open.  Red cylinders would be all over the place whether the bomb was real or not and most of us believe it was a fake.  A good looking fake of course.  Had to make believers out of them.  I am a firm believer he survived the jump.  Whether he was one of the many suspects?  Who knows.  It would be something if he were found alive.  The money is the only key now.  No Raleigh butts so the money has to be found.

I am a firm believer that Cooper died in the jump as well as the Western Flight Path (as it is now called).  If Cooper threw the briefcase and other items out of the aircraft, they would be scattered over about a 75 mile stretch of woods and water.  About the last 10 miles or so on the WFP and north of Tina Bar would be directly over the Columbia River itself.

Also, the above is the only explanation that can be done by natural means and doesn't require a miracle or two to get the money to Tina Bar.