Some guy just posted on YouTube, re the History channel DNA find on the tie, that it was from the tie worker in Italy that made it?  I asked how he got this info so fast?  No response yet.  Could his DNA show after 45 years with all the handling this tie has gone through?  Must have been an expensive tie? 

Never mind.  The guy just admitted it was pure sarcasm!!!   Why do people post crap like this on YouTube?

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  Some guy just posted on YouTube, re the History channel DNA find on the tie, that it was from the tie worker in Italy that made it?  I asked how he got this info so fast?  No response yet.  Could his DNA show after 45 years with all the handling this tie has gone through?  Must have been an expensive tie? 

Never mind.  The guy just admitted it was pure sarcasm!!!   Why do people post crap like this on YouTube?

You will need a good shrink to figure out the answer to your question.

I think it's pretty simple. They think they're being funny. They're not invested in the case, they think it's ridiculous that people are, and they make a wisecrack.

 DBC is just a fun, harmless hobby/obsession; we all have very full lives outside the shadow of the canopy.

So, myself and a friend reached out to a few people involved in metallurgy. We provided them with the data on the metals found on the tie from TK's website, and asked for their feedback on what it might mean.

They seemed to think that particles indicated that Cooper actually worked WITH those metals rather than simply being in the same location as them.

In other words, rather than a manager sitting in an office while metalwork takes places nearby, he could be chemist or metallurgist working in close contact with them.

Moreover, they suggested that if the tie was Cooper’s then the particles implied that he was more than likely involved in melting down titanium rather than producing it.

Regarding the rare earth elements, such as gold, silver, and palladium...They agreed that there almost no possibility that an average person would get this on their clothing. They would have to be working in close contact with them. 

Again, they agreed that only someone doing R&D work in special metals would collect these combinations of compounds and elements - someone working closely with casting or welding of special/precious metals. One of the metallurgist suggested that one of the particles did not have the morphology of a titanium sponge and looked more like a machining chip.

They also said that a lot of the silicon compounds and some of the light metal compounds could be explained with the matches and tobacco ash.

Their consensus was that Cooper was a chemist doing research and development on specialty metals. Some institutions they mentioned as possibilities included:  Precision Castparts Corporation, TiLine, Oremet, Wah Chang, or perhaps even the Bureau of Mines/Albany Metallurgy Research Center.

I ran this by Tom Kaye himself and here is what he said:

"Chemist is certainly a possibility, and we have already suggested that the chemical plants were switching over to titanium piping etc at that time."

I wanted to share this with you all in order to get your feedback on it and perhaps provide a new line of inquiry. Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

The Fingerprints

I've been working up a piece on the fingerprints, below. I invite, in fact beg, for feedback.

Chapter 19
Fingerprints


The question of fingerprints is perhaps the most convoluted issue in Norjak. To this date there is no definitive statement from the FBI that declares how many fingerprints they have, what kinds of fingerprints in terms of palm prints, thumb print, etc., or where they were collected.
The confusion over the fingerprints is so complete that we are only learning now, in 2020, as we read the dribs and drabs of print issues the 302s. Adding more confusion, we only learn the details of what and where in an indirect manner as the documents state that a certain suspect, such as Robert W. Rackstraw, was dismissed because their prints didn’t match anything the FBI had on file for DB Cooper.

In fact, the dearth of information on the fingerprints is so complete that I’ve never written about it before, and this chapter was not included in previous editions of this book. Along those lines, the early works on Cooper do not mention the fingerprints at all, such as Himmelsbach’s NORJAK and Tosaw’s Dead or Alive - DB Cooper. More troubling information comes from Geoffrey Gray, even with his unlimited access to FBI files, was unable to deliver any definitive statement on the fingerprints in his SKYJACK. Further, in an email to me in 2020 GG stated: “However many sets there were… we know the quality and origin are… no good or incomplete.”

But the FBI seems to have some fingerprints that it does trust, which it uses to disqualify suspects. So, what does the FBI have on file? Here are the tidbits I have gathered.

Calame and Rhodes offered the first - and for decades the only - inkling of what kinds of fingerprints the FBI had collected in Reno. Specifically, they state that eleven sets of fingerprints were retrieved but were soon found to be too smudged to be of any value. This finding of eleven unusable prints is corroborated by the FBI document 164A-81-8868, (dated 12. 9. 86.) However, this doc also states that these prints were lifted off the ashtray, which suggests that more prints were recovered in other places.

That larger number hovers in the 60-80 range. Larry Carr told me in 2008 that the FBI had 66 sets of prints, which is corroborated by 164-2111, (dated 10. 9. 75.) Similarly, 69 prints are declared by 164-81-7153, (dated 10. 26. 76.) In addition, 70 sets are described in document SE 164A-81-8767, (dated 8. 14. 84). Further, in a highly redacted 302 it appears that the Bureau claims 77 sets of fingerprints, 164A-81-8816, (dated 8. 13. 85), while the undated SE 164-81-P says “approximately” 80.

In terms of where the additional fingerprints were retrieved, we only know general areas. 164-81-1029, (dated 12. 13. 71) says that the two seats Cooper sat in received heavy attention, along with the airphone on which he called the cockpit to ‘slow the plane down.” In addition, the rear door and the surrounding area near the aftstairs were dusted for prints, along with four plastic drinking glasses found in the trash near the back door. It is also believed that the rear lavatory was dusted, as per Summary Report, LV 164-60, page 291, (dated 11. 26. 71.)

Palm prints were also obtained, as per SE 164-81-9260, (dated 3. 8. 79), and it is widely believed these prints were found on the arm rests of seats 18-E and 18-D, which were removed and examined in Quantico.

As for these fingerprints and palm prints, we now know that they included the “tips, sides, and lower joint areas of fingers,” as per a report from the FBI’s Latent Fingerprint Division, dated 8. 20. 1976, and noted in an undated memo, 164-2111. Fellow researchers at the DB Cooper Forum have reported that the FBI had been requiring full sets of fingerprint and palm prints of all suspects being investigated in Norjak as of 1973. As a result, it is widely believed that the Bureau had its greatest confidence in its palm print.

However, that is disputed by Galen Cook, who told me that Larry Carr had told him in 2008 that the best Cooper print the FBI had was a fingerprint lifted off an in-flight magazine, and was using it as its primary means of dismissing suspects.

Ironically, the issue of magazines is another conundrum, as Calame and Rhodes claim the Reno team did not collect the magazines and were severely chided by the Bureau as a result. However, there is also an FBI document that suggests a second survey of magazines was conducted after the initial one in Reno – perhaps as late as 1972 – from which clear and clean fingerprints were retrieved. [SE 164-81, page 2, “DB Cooper 8571.”

Along those lines, Larry Carr posted on the DropZone chat room that the FBI had gotten good prints off the magazines. Specifically, Carr stated: “No fingerprints from the airstairs, in fact no fingerprints recovered from the airplane during the first evidence sweep… On a second sweep some magazines were located in the area where Cooper had been. These were processed and a few latents were recovered that are of value.”

A second sweep? Clearly, the FBI has been keeping some serious secrets about their investigation.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The Fingerprints

I've been working up a piece on the fingerprints, below. I invite, in fact beg, for feedback.

Chapter 19
Fingerprints


The question of fingerprints is perhaps the most convoluted issue in Norjak. To this date there is no definitive statement from the FBI that declares how many fingerprints they have, what kinds of fingerprints in terms of palm prints, thumb print, etc., or where they were collected.
The confusion over the fingerprints is so complete that we are only learning now, in 2020, as we read the dribs and drabs of print issues the 302s. Adding more confusion, we only learn the details of what and where in an indirect manner as the documents state that a certain suspect, such as Robert W. Rackstraw, was dismissed because their prints didn’t match anything the FBI had on file for DB Cooper.

In fact, the dearth of information on the fingerprints is so complete that I’ve never written about it before, and this chapter was not included in previous editions of this book. Along those lines, the early works on Cooper do not mention the fingerprints at all, such as Himmelsbach’s NORJAK and Tosaw’s Dead or Alive - DB Cooper. More troubling information comes from Geoffrey Gray, even with his unlimited access to FBI files, was unable to deliver any definitive statement on the fingerprints in his SKYJACK. Further, in an email to me in 2020 GG stated: “However many sets there were… we know the quality and origin are… no good or incomplete.”

But the FBI seems to have some fingerprints that it does trust, which it uses to disqualify suspects. So, what does the FBI have on file? Here are the tidbits I have gathered.

Calame and Rhodes offered the first - and for decades the only - inkling of what kinds of fingerprints the FBI had collected in Reno. Specifically, they state that eleven sets of fingerprints were retrieved but were soon found to be too smudged to be of any value. This finding of eleven unusable prints is corroborated by the FBI document 164A-81-8868, (dated 12. 9. 86.) However, this doc also states that these prints were lifted off the ashtray, which suggests that more prints were recovered in other places.

That larger number hovers in the 60-80 range. Larry Carr told me in 2008 that the FBI had 66 sets of prints, which is corroborated by 164-2111, (dated 10. 9. 75.) Similarly, 69 prints are declared by 164-81-7153, (dated 10. 26. 76.) In addition, 70 sets are described in document SE 164A-81-8767, (dated 8. 14. 84). Further, in a highly redacted 302 it appears that the Bureau claims 77 sets of fingerprints, 164A-81-8816, (dated 8. 13. 85), while the undated SE 164-81-P says “approximately” 80.

In terms of where the additional fingerprints were retrieved, we only know general areas. 164-81-1029, (dated 12. 13. 71) says that the two seats Cooper sat in received heavy attention, along with the airphone on which he called the cockpit to ‘slow the plane down.” In addition, the rear door and the surrounding area near the aftstairs were dusted for prints, along with four plastic drinking glasses found in the trash near the back door. It is also believed that the rear lavatory was dusted, as per Summary Report, LV 164-60, page 291, (dated 11. 26. 71.)

Palm prints were also obtained, as per SE 164-81-9260, (dated 3. 8. 79), and it is widely believed these prints were found on the arm rests of seats 18-E and 18-D, which were removed and examined in Quantico.

As for these fingerprints and palm prints, we now know that they included the “tips, sides, and lower joint areas of fingers,” as per a report from the FBI’s Latent Fingerprint Division, dated 8. 20. 1976, and noted in an undated memo, 164-2111. Fellow researchers at the DB Cooper Forum have reported that the FBI had been requiring full sets of fingerprint and palm prints of all suspects being investigated in Norjak as of 1973. As a result, it is widely believed that the Bureau had its greatest confidence in its palm print.

However, that is disputed by Galen Cook, who told me that Larry Carr had told him in 2008 that the best Cooper print the FBI had was a fingerprint lifted off an in-flight magazine, and was using it as its primary means of dismissing suspects.

Ironically, the issue of magazines is another conundrum, as Calame and Rhodes claim the Reno team did not collect the magazines and were severely chided by the Bureau as a result. However, there is also an FBI document that suggests a second survey of magazines was conducted after the initial one in Reno – perhaps as late as 1972 – from which clear and clean fingerprints were retrieved. [SE 164-81, page 2, “DB Cooper 8571.”

Along those lines, Larry Carr posted on the DropZone chat room that the FBI had gotten good prints off the magazines. Specifically, Carr stated: “No fingerprints from the airstairs, in fact no fingerprints recovered from the airplane during the first evidence sweep… On a second sweep some magazines were located in the area where Cooper had been. These were processed and a few latents were recovered that are of value.”

A second sweep? Clearly, the FBI has been keeping some serious secrets about their investigation.

The 302s tell the story. Between 66-80 impressions were lifted from the plane and items in the plane. The Lab distilled that down to a core set of 4-6-15 impressions plus a palm print and a hair sample (mounted on a slide), that was the core set of Laboratory evidence used for all suspect comparisons, starting in 1971 and still being used in the 2000s to evaluate suspects. Recordings of suspect voices and photographs were run by the stews and passengers when possible, for comparison. A dna partial profile was added around the year 2000.

The 302s establish those facts clearly, in spite of what anyone says.