Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1673804 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5805 on: November 12, 2020, 12:18:25 PM »
How did he know where to place someone on the ground.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5806 on: November 12, 2020, 12:26:26 PM »
Remember, if he had someone waiting he had to split the loot.  I doubt that happened
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5807 on: November 12, 2020, 12:40:57 PM »
You need to explain how he knew where to place someone and when he knew where to jump. cloud coverage and no knowledge of where the plane was without contacting the pilots presents a problem with this logic. how would he know where the pilots are flying?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5808 on: November 12, 2020, 12:42:34 PM »
We could speculate he had 10 people on the ground spread out over a large area. why just one?
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5809 on: November 12, 2020, 01:03:03 PM »
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You need to explain how he knew where to place someone and when he knew where to jump. cloud coverage and no knowledge of where the plane was without contacting the pilots presents a problem with this logic. how would he know where the pilots are flying?
Well I am assuming he did this solo.  Less chance of getting caught by loose lips and you get twice as much money
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5810 on: November 12, 2020, 06:36:32 PM »
To clarify a bit on 'Parachute Clarity'


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4. One Back Chute, aka, "main," was found on the plane in Reno. It was returned to its owner, Norman Hayden, in about 1975 after a court battle with the FBI.

Flyjack makes a reasonable case that these were not the same parachute, and that is that the reported serial numbers on the pack and data cards do not match. Could this be a clerical error on the part of the FBI? I don't know. But if the numbers indeed do not match, then they're not the same rig.


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5. No one knows definitively what kind of parachute DBC jumped with. The most logical estimation is that it was the second of the two back chutes Norman Hayden had delivered to NWO on the night of the skyjacking. Norman told me that he gave NWO two identical Pioneer/Steinthaul rigs. Hence, DBC most likely jumped with a 28' conical P/S chute. Norman later recanted this statement when interviewed by Robert Blevins, according to RMB, who claims that Hayden told him that the second chute was an NB-8.

Based solely on this statement - '28' conical' refers to the canopy, while 'NB-8' refers to the container, so not necessarily conflicting information.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5811 on: November 13, 2020, 06:36:20 AM »
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You need to explain how he knew where to place someone and when he knew where to jump. cloud coverage and no knowledge of where the plane was without contacting the pilots presents a problem with this logic. how would he know where the pilots are flying?

Maybe go listen to Mr Rollins and his podcast on the Vortex and the details about the Dam?  The Dam that Leonard Nimoy mentioned in the show "In Search Of" and said that he would have seen the Dam during the jump?  Who knows?  And he could have used the River to escape
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 06:37:26 AM by DBfan57 »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5812 on: November 13, 2020, 08:51:11 AM »
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You need to explain how he knew where to place someone and when he knew where to jump. cloud coverage and no knowledge of where the plane was without contacting the pilots presents a problem with this logic. how would he know where the pilots are flying?

Maybe go listen to Mr Rollins and his podcast on the Vortex and the details about the Dam?  The Dam that Leonard Nimoy mentioned in the show "In Search Of" and said that he would have seen the Dam during the jump?  Who knows?  And he could have used the River to escape

DBFan-I like your approach to the case, as you're starting to see, there is a lot more to learn.  However, you seem to be a generally positive new addition to this forum.  Posting theories (money in circulation, surviving the jump, etc.) will usually result in counter arguments, sometimes attacks from some members here (unfortunately), and rarely will you see immediate responses supporting your theories.  Although you'll see a few.  However, outside of the wild theories, there are usually two groups on here, those who believe in the theory and those who don't.  The third group would be the ones who just enjoy creating problems and criticizing.  You can figure out who they are. With that said, some thoughts on some of what you've proposed-

Survivability: There are many who think he survived, few who don't.  But both theories have good points.  As a former skydiver, I did not think this was a doable jump for a first timer, but someone with a little experience, and a lot of luck, could have survived.  He would have been hurting though.  Remember, he did have a military bail out chute, which was meant to save pilots and aircrew with no experience jumping.

Money in circulation: I definitely did not think he spent the money.  That was until I started to read info from Martin Andrade (who coincidently is one who has info on surviving the jump).  Just because the the money was not found, does not mean it was not in circulation in the US.  I love Darren's podcast, and the money guy was a good guest, but he was lacking in some general understanding of the case.  Again, there are two camps on the money being in circulation.

Knowing where he was in the air-I'd guess that 90% think he did not know where he was.  I'm in the 10% that think he could have had an idea given air speed, direction, and time. However, to pinpoint a landing spot would have been close to impossible, even with a steerable chute.  I believe Cooper planned to walk out of the area, or link up with someone, but that would have been complicated.

Long post, but bottom line is that even if you are shot down by other posters, you might find that there are others who agree and just don't log on here to post.  Many of us have had theories, but with open minds have been willing to listen to other theories, and at least be positive of others.

Chaucer is working hard to be the new Georger.  178 posts in just a few months, some unprofessional, and most of them cutting down other posters.

Keep thinking DBFan.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 08:56:11 AM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5813 on: November 13, 2020, 09:20:05 AM »
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You need to explain how he knew where to place someone and when he knew where to jump. cloud coverage and no knowledge of where the plane was without contacting the pilots presents a problem with this logic. how would he know where the pilots are flying?

Maybe go listen to Mr Rollins and his podcast on the Vortex and the details about the Dam?  The Dam that Leonard Nimoy mentioned in the show "In Search Of" and said that he would have seen the Dam during the jump?  Who knows?  And he could have used the River to escape

DBFan-I like your approach to the case, as you're starting to see, there is a lot more to learn.  However, you seem to be a generally positive new addition to this forum.  Posting theories (money in circulation, surviving the jump, etc.) will usually result in counter arguments, sometimes attacks from some members here (unfortunately), and rarely will you see immediate responses supporting your theories.  Although you'll see a few.  However, outside of the wild theories, there are usually two groups on here, those who believe in the theory and those who don't.  The third group would be the ones who just enjoy creating problems and criticizing.  You can figure out who they are. With that said, some thoughts on some of what you've proposed-

Survivability: There are many who think he survived, few who don't.  But both theories have good points.  As a former skydiver, I did not think this was a doable jump for a first timer, but someone with a little experience, and a lot of luck, could have survived.  He would have been hurting though.  Remember, he did have a military bail out chute, which was meant to save pilots and aircrew with no experience jumping.

Money in circulation: I definitely did not think he spent the money.  That was until I started to read info from Martin Andrade (who coincidently is one who has info on surviving the jump).  Just because the the money was not found, does not mean it was not in circulation in the US.  I love Darren's podcast, and the money guy was a good guest, but he was lacking in some general understanding of the case.  Again, there are two camps on the money being in circulation.

Knowing where he was in the air-I'd guess that 90% think he did not know where he was.  I'm in the 10% that think he could have had an idea given air speed, direction, and time. However, to pinpoint a landing spot would have been close to impossible, even with a steerable chute.  I believe Cooper planned to walk out of the area, or link up with someone, but that would have been complicated.

Long post, but bottom line is that even if you are shot down by other posters, you might find that there are others who agree and just don't log on here to post.  Many of us have had theories, but with open minds have been willing to listen to other theories, and at least be positive of others.

Chaucer is working hard to be the new Georger.  178 posts in just a few months, some unprofessional, and most of them cutting down other posters.

Keep thinking DBFan.  Thanks.

Amazing thing, as I read your post i am watching on YouTube, Martin Andrade's take on DB surviving the jump!!!  Also, I have just been listening to Bill Rollins Vortex podcast after he emailed me in a response to an email I sent to Bruce Smith.  Now these guys are all very welcoming and open to discussion.  I have already run into the ones that think they are the end all of knowledge on this and I have no right to come on here and such.  The reality is they are as much Trolls as I am.  Unless you are the real DB Cooper or an FBI agent on this case you are basically a sleuth, troll, or whatever you wish to call it. Poor Bill Rollins ran into the same BS.   I am not going to let them run me out unless the admins or powers that be here decide they have had enough of me and simply whack my account.  I am no newbie to internet forums, so I know how this al works much more than most of them think.  I understand Proxy's and board etiquette.  But lets just put that aside.  Put me down as one that believes DB survived the jump.  I am not on the side of the "money counter".    Cant remember off the top of my head if it was Chaucer or Shutter, whose names I see the most, that came after me?  I do not want to start any problems.  Back to the jump, In the In Search Of by Leonard Nimoy, old but much nearer to the case when you think about it, it is mentioned about the dam and that Cooper would have seen it?  If it was the Hoover damn I think that with any type of lighting, even moonlight, it would have been seen and I am pretty sure these dams are lighted at night?  So I absolutely believe he did the math on time and distance.  He did the math on the metrics of the plane so why would he just turn stupid and not do the rest?  He had an idea, a rough estimate that I believe would have put him no worse than 20 miles off in either direction. I am certain he would have had a compass.  Now I am speculating and inviting a certain someone to attack me.  Go ahead.  I do not care.  Speculation is 99% of the game on DB Cooper. So I am in the camp of the believers that he made the jump.  I am not convinced any of the top suspects, or even Bill Rollins suspect is the real DB.  Its just a shame they do not have those cigarette butts.  Who would have known how important they could have been?  DNA. The best prover there is.  I have heard they have some off the tie but do not know if its actually from Cooper?  I wonder if the FBI ever compared what they do have to lets say Reca or McCoy or Rackstraw or this other bird named by Rollins?  Thats enough for now.  Ill await the next onslaught
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5814 on: November 13, 2020, 10:13:15 AM »
Quote
Cant remember off the top of my head if it was Chaucer or Shutter, whose names I see the most, that came after me?


Lets get one thing perfectly clear. I have not come after you. I challenge what you write on this forum. since you claim to know all about forums you should know that's how they work. when someone makes multiple posts on the same forum in a short period of time it tends to get feedback from them. something you should once again understand. positive and negative comments will also follow someone's post. you claim you don't want to start any problems then claim the owner of the thread came after you? nobody is going to agree with someone 100% on any board. if that's what you are looking for then you are in the wrong place. I don't disrespect ANYONE on this forum. remember that!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 11:15:33 AM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5815 on: November 13, 2020, 11:54:04 AM »
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Quote
Cant remember off the top of my head if it was Chaucer or Shutter, whose names I see the most, that came after me?


Lets get one thing perfectly clear. I have not come after you. I challenge what you write on this forum. since you claim to know all about forums you should know that's how they work. when someone makes multiple posts on the same forum in a short period of time it tends to get feedback from them. something you should once again understand. positive and negative comments will also follow someone's post. you claim you don't want to start any problems then claim the owner of the thread came after you? nobody is going to agree with someone 100% on any board. if that's what you are looking for then you are in the wrong place. I don't disrespect ANYONE on this forum. remember that!
Agree 100%. I have never "come after you".

Have I challenged some of your assertions? Yes? Did I actually HELP you when you wanted to listen to the Friedman Vortex episode? Also yes.

 Stop calling anyone who disagrees with you a "troll".
“Completely unhinged”
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5816 on: November 13, 2020, 01:38:22 PM »
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Quote
Cant remember off the top of my head if it was Chaucer or Shutter, whose names I see the most, that came after me?


Lets get one thing perfectly clear. I have not come after you. I challenge what you write on this forum. since you claim to know all about forums you should know that's how they work. when someone makes multiple posts on the same forum in a short period of time it tends to get feedback from them. something you should once again understand. positive and negative comments will also follow someone's post. you claim you don't want to start any problems then claim the owner of the thread came after you? nobody is going to agree with someone 100% on any board. if that's what you are looking for then you are in the wrong place. I don't disrespect ANYONE on this forum. remember that!

My apologies.  It indeed was not you.  But someone here did attack me unprovoked.  He misunderstood what I said.  I simply replied "Ill take that answer as an I do not know" and he told me I do not know anything.  It was uncalled for.  I am not sure now which thread it was on.  I am not used to the format here that is for sure.  I have seen many posts from you and, well another member, and I got them confused.  I hope there are no hard feelings

Fixed post..Shutter
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 03:48:13 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5817 on: November 13, 2020, 02:08:47 PM »
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Quote
Cant remember off the top of my head if it was Chaucer or Shutter, whose names I see the most, that came after me?


Lets get one thing perfectly clear. I have not come after you. I challenge what you write on this forum. since you claim to know all about forums you should know that's how they work. when someone makes multiple posts on the same forum in a short period of time it tends to get feedback from them. something you should once again understand. positive and negative comments will also follow someone's post. you claim you don't want to start any problems then claim the owner of the thread came after you? nobody is going to agree with someone 100% on any board. if that's what you are looking for then you are in the wrong place. I don't disrespect ANYONE on this forum. remember that!

My apologies.  It indeed was not you.  But someone here did attack me unprovoked.  He misunderstood what I said.  I simply replied "Ill take that answer as an I do not know" and he told me I do not know anything.  It was uncalled for.  I am not sure now which thread it was on.  I am not used to the format here that is for sure.  I have seen many posts from you and, well another member, and I got them confused.  I hope there are no hard feelings

I think that you are referring to a reply that I made to one of your posts.  I did not say that you did not know "anything", but you need to read the original response again to understand what I was saying.  And for the record, your original post was basically uncalled for as well to use your language.

So please keep the posters straight and give appropriate credit to the responders. 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5818 on: November 14, 2020, 04:52:38 AM »
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To clarify a bit on 'Parachute Clarity'


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4. One Back Chute, aka, "main," was found on the plane in Reno. It was returned to its owner, Norman Hayden, in about 1975 after a court battle with the FBI.

Flyjack makes a reasonable case that these were not the same parachute, and that is that the reported serial numbers on the pack and data cards do not match. Could this be a clerical error on the part of the FBI? I don't know. But if the numbers indeed do not match, then they're not the same rig.


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5. No one knows definitively what kind of parachute DBC jumped with. The most logical estimation is that it was the second of the two back chutes Norman Hayden had delivered to NWO on the night of the skyjacking. Norman told me that he gave NWO two identical Pioneer/Steinthaul rigs. Hence, DBC most likely jumped with a 28' conical P/S chute. Norman later recanted this statement when interviewed by Robert Blevins, according to RMB, who claims that Hayden told him that the second chute was an NB-8.

Based solely on this statement - '28' conical' refers to the canopy, while 'NB-8' refers to the container, so not necessarily conflicting information.

Yes, Flyjack makes the claim that the "Not Used" chute found on the plane in Reno does have different serial numbers than those listed in certain 302s. I don't know how that happened. It's possible that the numbers refer to two different Pioneer/Steinthauls.

Also, I believe I erred. The two main chutes Norman gave NWO had 26-foot conicals.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5819 on: November 14, 2020, 06:07:55 AM »
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Quote
Cant remember off the top of my head if it was Chaucer or Shutter, whose names I see the most, that came after me?


Lets get one thing perfectly clear. I have not come after you. I challenge what you write on this forum. since you claim to know all about forums you should know that's how they work. when someone makes multiple posts on the same forum in a short period of time it tends to get feedback from them. something you should once again understand. positive and negative comments will also follow someone's post. you claim you don't want to start any problems then claim the owner of the thread came after you? nobody is going to agree with someone 100% on any board. if that's what you are looking for then you are in the wrong place. I don't disrespect ANYONE on this forum. remember that!

My apologies.  It indeed was not you.  But someone here did attack me unprovoked.  He misunderstood what I said.  I simply replied "Ill take that answer as an I do not know" and he told me I do not know anything.  It was uncalled for.  I am not sure now which thread it was on.  I am not used to the format here that is for sure.  I have seen many posts from you and, well another member, and I got them confused.  I hope there are no hard feelings

I think that you are referring to a reply that I made to one of your posts.  I did not say that you did not know "anything", but you need to read the original response again to understand what I was saying.  And for the record, your original post was basically uncalled for as well to use your language.

So please keep the posters straight and give appropriate credit to the responders.

How about we just forget about it and bury the issue.  Its not going to get us anywhere quarreling on here.  I am wiling to forget it. In fact, I could not even remember your username until you posted this.  Sorry that it happened.  And sorry that I mislead you.