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Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1673523 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5685 on: September 16, 2020, 05:53:50 PM »
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I am posting a link below to a Google Map showing my version of the Western Flight Path. It illustrates the fiberglass skirt find location, the placard find location, and the money find location. It depicts what I consider very close to the actual flight path.

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If you are the pilot on a hijacked airplane flying to Reno from Seattle, this seems like an ineffective route. Especially if you are trying your hardest to avoid major cities, in case the "bomb" detonates. Interesting theory, though.

The pilots were essentially flying Victor 23 all the way down. It's not as simple as pointing the jet in a straight line and flying to Reno. Also, this path enables them to avoid the major population centers of Vancouver and Portland.

This path? Essentially ?  :rofl:

This is actual history not "This path" ...... "your path" vs. "actual history"!

Which version do you want text books to carry? Which version do you want stuffed into children's minds?   The choice is history and facts vs indoctrination and myth.

"The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. It was all in a day's work for them. "

sHOW US YOUR DATA TAPE ?

GEORGER you seem to think people are infallible.

I believe someone made a mistake somewhere, somehow. I believe this not because I'm a fool and decided to pull this out of my ass. Rather, there is actual physical evidence--skirt, placard, money--that are very problematic for the FBI Flight Path. Moreover, not a damn thing has been found after nearly 50 years in the FBI search area or where one may expect to find something along the FBI Flight Path.

Now if you don't want to question all of the conflicts here then great, that is your prerogative. I think very differently.

If I had to guess, I would say that the FBI Flight Path depicts not the flight path of 305, but rather the flight path of the F-106's.

Your credentials?

"The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. It was all in a day's work for them. "
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5686 on: September 16, 2020, 06:20:16 PM »
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Your credentials?


My credentials?

Well I've been fortunate enough to walk the face of Mother Earth for 54 years so far. And in that 54 years I have learned a few things. Such as:

1) Fiberglass panels and thin plastic placards cannot defy the Laws of Physics and float into the wind.

2) That money cannot swim up river and that money does not have little money legs that enable it to walk up a beach and bury itself for 8 years with a little money shovel.

3) That I speak and read English, and that my understanding is that Capt. Scott expressed to Himms that DBC jumped nearer Woodland as opposed to Ariel.

4) That 50 years is a long time not to have discovered anything of DBC's parachutes, attache ' case, or anything else in the FBI search area or anywhere else consistent with the FBI Flight Path.

5) That people make mistakes, such as Dr. Palmer.

6) That to suggest that every investigator or FBI Special Agent or sleuth needs a PHD in a particular subject to question the veracity of said subject is foolish.

Shall I continue GEORGER? Or shall I earn that PHD first?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 06:23:03 PM by EU »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5687 on: September 16, 2020, 06:23:18 PM »
Quote
That money cannot swim up river and that money does not have little money legs

Are you sure...remember that ant problem I had the other day...they were seen lifting cash out of my wallet. a dollar bill was seen with little feet  :rofl: 8)

Couldn't resist that one...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 06:27:11 PM by Shutter »
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Offline grapesofwrath

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5688 on: September 16, 2020, 09:17:17 PM »
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If the aircraft was just a few miles east of this proposed flight path, you would be right over Vancouver and Portland. Regardless, this path still flies over suburban Portland. If the goal was to avoid major cities and populated areas while still flying west, it would make more sense to hug the coast and make a sharp turn between Portland/Salem or Salem/Eugene.

Yes, the pilots considered flying over the Pacific but ultimately decided against it. Perhaps they reasoned that DBC would consider such a move "funny stuff."

I spoke with Capt. Scott's daughter about this and she stated that knowing her father, he would have done his best to avoid flying directly over populated areas. Indeed, by flying west of downtown Portland, Capt. Scott would have done a good job of steering clear of heavily populated areas.

Yes, the pilots considered flying over the Pacific ...

No. Was said in gest! That was never a serious alternative suggested. It was a remark only - cannot be used to say anything about the fp they took.

Have you seen a 302 which explains why they took V23? Or any 302 that mentions going out over the Pacific ?

That's correct, I misspoke slightly. What I had meant to say is that a *hypothetical* western flight path would make more sense hugging the coast and making a sharp turn to the east. Sorry for any confusion.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5689 on: September 16, 2020, 09:21:12 PM »
what do you mean by sharp turn to the east?
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Offline grapesofwrath

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5690 on: September 16, 2020, 09:41:56 PM »
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what do you mean by sharp turn to the east?

EU's proposed flight path (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login), lies very close to Portland. In the *hypothetical* scenario that a western flight path is correct, it makes more sense that 305 would fly south from Seattle keeping close to the coast (to avoid urban areas in case a bomb did detonate), before making a turn to the east passing between Portland/Salem or Salem/Eugene, to stay over rural terrain. 305 could not have traveled over N. California without raising its altitude over 10,000 ft, making this sharp turn necessary.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5691 on: September 16, 2020, 09:46:52 PM »
The original path stays at 10,000 as well. only towards the end briefly goes to 11,000. it maps out very simple and should of been a easy red flag to the current path. anyone of them should of said, "guys, it's simple. we flew from here to here only changing way points here and here. should of been real easy to plot without any help from anyone if this was the case..we have a lot of things discounting this path.

I'm not sold on the current path but need clear evidence that proves a lot of people were wrong.  making turns in the sky doesn't really make it a bad thing? the point was to get to Reno via V23. knowing every single move was not plotted out...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 09:49:12 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5692 on: September 16, 2020, 09:53:32 PM »
Have you been to our vault to look at the known evidence surrounding the path? I have 95% of the data in one file if you would like to read over them?
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5693 on: September 16, 2020, 10:01:16 PM »
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Conversation/argument starter:

Does the discovery of the placard by hunters in 1978 lend credence to the FBI's V23 flight path or the Western Flight Path?

Chaucer, the placard and some other matters support what is now called the Western Flight Path.  This has been discussed at considerable lengths here and at DropZone for the last 10 years.
Tom Kaye’s Citizen Sleuths website would indicate otherwise? Also, you assume that your opinion is the consensus when it seems more like the minority opinion.

Chaucer, there you go again.  You are the one who needs to start sticking to science and facts and not just your opinions or the opinions of others.  So far as I am aware, you don't have a single fact to disprove the so-called Western Flight Path.  And how about mentioning your aeronautical qualifications that make you feel qualified to question that flight path.  You can't hide behind "Chaucer" for ever.

Since 2010, I have posted extensively both here and on DropZone the facts that support the Western Flight Path and the problems with other proposed flight paths.  I have listed my aeronautical qualifications and signed those posts with my real name.  Or to put it another way, I stand behind what I have posted on the Western Flight Path and that is more than just opinions.
Why do you always default to "defensive ass" any time I do anything than enthusiastically agree with you?

I fully admit that my knowledge of the case is less than most (if not all of the other frequent posters here - including you. Perhaps, instead of acting like a prick, you educate people new to the case? Because in educating myself, it seems that the Central Flight Path is the accepted one and so far I haven't seen anything that indicates otherwise.

My original question related to the placard and so far no one has provided a shred of evidence EITHER WAY. Not even you. Sorry if I don't want to scroll through hundreds of pages of people acting like A-holes to each other to get a satisfying answer.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5694 on: September 16, 2020, 10:21:56 PM »
Before this get out of hand as usual we need to start responding to comments without the bullshit..

R99, I have a lot of respect for you but even with all the credentials in the world doesn't make one right, or wrong for that matter. as mentioned earlier a lot of evidence needs to be wrong. I'm not saying all the evidence is right either but just because it makes sense to the opposite doesn't make it a fact either. we start swinging and nothing gets done..working against each other will never get progress..I speak to Eric often on the phone. we disagree all the time but never come down to getting upset or hanging up....
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 10:25:09 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5695 on: September 16, 2020, 10:27:29 PM »
We have new members here that are not up to speed with everything. we can't use the "read thread" bullshit. either help the member out or don't say anything at all.
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5696 on: September 16, 2020, 10:46:57 PM »
To the best of my knowledge there are only two people who subscribe to the Western Flight Path--myself and R99.

Tom Kaye's site is a solid resource. However, it is worth noting that it is wrong in some areas--for example the Tena Bar money find spot. Also, I do not believe that Tom's discussion concerning the FBI Flight Path factors in the recent work that R99 conducted regarding the placard drift analysis which utilized updated--and much more accurate--placard weight and size data, as well as weather data (which Tom himself provided).

As I've asked many times before: How do those who subscribe to the FBI Flight Path rationalize the facts pertaining to the location of the placard find, the location of the fiberglass skirt find, the Tena Bar money find, the prevailing winds that night driving to the northeast, and other facts such as nothing has ever been found in the FBI search area or anywhere along the FBI Flight Path as would be expected (meaning to the NE of the FBI Flight Path)?

These are substantive matters of concern. If someone can plausibly answer the above questions I'm willing to listen.

Finally, I will say that I can respond to any question concerning the opposite argument. Meaning, I have what I believe to be rational explanations for the FBI Flight Path and how it came about, and the testimony of the Portland controller who apparently stated that 305 was actually east of the FBI Flight Path. Now I may be wrong with my respect to my theories on these matters, although I suspect I am not.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 10:52:27 PM by EU »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5697 on: September 16, 2020, 10:56:19 PM »
The placard seems to surround exact winds to pinpoint a location. still no proof it's been in the exact location since 1971. the piece found could certainly be part of the siding. however you were not able to locate a serial number on the whole piece while one was found on a small piece? they are strong possibilities vs fact. I think some of the data with the winds are not accurate and people I spoke with laughed at the ability to pinpoint wind. are they wrong, perhaps.

I don't believe Portland wouldn't know exactly where 305 was. the big stink is a bomb on the plane and yet only concern from the pilots exist. not even spoken publicly about it? the path makes sense but doesn't make it fact..

Regardless to what people think about Flyjack, he found supporting data on the winds and the FBI was keyed in about wind changes as well. if not mistaken some of the wind data is ground level..not winds aloft. he will correct it in seconds... :rofl:
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 11:03:15 PM by Shutter »
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5698 on: September 16, 2020, 11:06:11 PM »
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The placard seems to surround exact winds to pinpoint a location. still no proof it's been in the exact location since 1971. the piece found could certainly be part of the siding. however you were not able to locate a serial number on the whole piece while one was found on a small piece? they are strong possibilities vs fact. I think some of the data with the winds are no accurate and people I spoke with laughed at the ability to pinpoint wind. are they wrong, perhaps.

I don't believe Portland wouldn't know exactly where 305 was. the big stink is a bomb on the plane and yet only concern from the pilots exist. not even spoken publicly about it? the path makes sense but doesn't make it fact..

Regardless to what people think about Flyjack, he found supporting data on the winds and the FBI was keyed in about wind changes as well. if not mistaken some of the wind data is ground level..not winds aloft. he will correct it in seconds... :rofl:

The winds aloft were traveling at something over 30 miles per hour. Obviously near ground level the winds become more sporadic but that doesn't change anything. Follow the jet stream. There wasn't a hurricane that night where winds were circulating or winds flying off in all different directions. The winds aloft were headed to the NE at a quite brisk pace.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5699 on: September 16, 2020, 11:09:48 PM »
Nobody claims a hurricane was anywhere...we now know that placard is extremely light. winds of up 60 mph have been recorded in that area over the years it's been on the ground. could of blown all over the place for all we know..could of been stuck in the tree's for a period, who knows..
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