Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1669552 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5595 on: May 11, 2020, 04:58:14 PM »
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Same chute both pics..found it interesting to have lines coming out (frayed) similar to our issue..

If you are talking about the cord line that is attached to the handle, it is not part of the parachute.  The reason for it being attached to the handle is not known, but it serves no function related to the parachute except maybe something to hang it up by.  The fact that this cord is so frayed means that it has been in use for a very long time and is not something that Cooper would have cut and messed with for five minutes.

I'm not talking about the tie on the handle...another piece of line is tied onto the container similar to what we are seeing with the reserve in evidence...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 04:58:42 PM by Shutter »
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5596 on: May 11, 2020, 05:00:10 PM »
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In my jumping experience, one of these snaps almost always came unfastened during the opening.
 

Where would you get an idea like that? Not even close. Just because your friend apparently failed to hook one up correctly once...

Where would I get an idea like that?  By looking at the snaps after the main canopy opened.  Elementary, Dr. Dudeman17.  If both snaps are securely fastened before the exit, and then one is unfastened after the opening, ergo, etc.!  This was a common problem in the 1960s.

Now you have them coming off when the main opens, not just the reserve. Okay. Wow.





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Do you have experience jumping with belly mounted reserves?

Absolutely. I went through student status and made my first however many jumps on them. I've watched thousands of student jumps on them (including many reserve rides, whether they were needed or not). I've known many people who were active jumpers in the 60's, 70's, and on. They were my instructors, mentors, and friends. Not once have I had, seen, nor heard of one of those snaps coming off the D-ring during the opening of either canopy.

Early accuracy jumpers would often unhook one of the snaps after the main opened and hang the reserve off to the side. They did that on purpose for a better view on their final approach. Perhaps you have seen pictures of that and extrapolated it into 'personal experience' where it was a 'common problem'.
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5597 on: May 11, 2020, 05:37:34 PM »
Those pictures of the other container with a loop on the handle are interesting. I agree with R99 that that might just be something to hang it up by. To clarify, those pictures are generic pix of some other rig, and NOT Cooper's rig, right? (It is packed, and/but R99 made a comment relating it to Cooper.) That the ripcord handle is not in it's pocket and is zip-tied in an odd spot might be to prevent that rig from being jumped. Perhaps it's out of date on it's repack cycle.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5598 on: May 11, 2020, 05:42:34 PM »
I'm wondering if the rope could be used to attach gear? the pix are not from the hijacking...it's a chute for sale...

THIS LISTING IS FOR ONE (1) 24 Ft. Chest (Front) Horizontal Parachute Pack
- Dated Oct. 1961 -
- Pack container Date Of Manufacture is 1985
- Parachutes color unknown, parachute pack olive drab green
 - Printed date of manufacture
- We've maintained the integrity of the pack and have not opened it to picture suspension lines, Never opened. Complete.
- Uncertain if pilot chute present
 - Parachute seems to be in very good condition 
- Photos are of actual item you are bidding on
- Un-opened, untested
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 05:57:16 PM by Shutter »
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5599 on: May 11, 2020, 06:01:49 PM »
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I'm wondering if the rope could be used to attach gear? the pix are not from the hijacking...it's a chute for sale...

That's an interesting drawing. That would most likely be a military thing, you wouldn't normally carry random stuff like that on a sport jump. Cooper's reserves were sport jumping gear. The only reason I can think of attaching something like that on a sport rig might be for a flag on a demonstration jump, but I would expect them to take everything back off after they were done.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5600 on: May 11, 2020, 06:05:45 PM »
Quote
Cooper's reserves were sport jumping gear.

The belly chutes?
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5601 on: May 11, 2020, 06:07:14 PM »
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Quote
Cooper's reserves were sport jumping gear.

The belly chutes?

Yes. They might be military surplus in origin, but they came from Sky Sports, a civilian sport dz. Which, of course you know, but the point is that any military mods would probably be removed.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 10:01:47 PM by dudeman17 »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5602 on: May 11, 2020, 11:23:20 PM »
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Same chute both pics..found it interesting to have lines coming out (frayed) similar to our issue..

If you are talking about the cord line that is attached to the handle, it is not part of the parachute.  The reason for it being attached to the handle is not known, but it serves no function related to the parachute except maybe something to hang it up by.  The fact that this cord is so frayed means that it has been in use for a very long time and is not something that Cooper would have cut and messed with for five minutes.

I'm not talking about the tie on the handle...another piece of line is tied onto the container similar to what we are seeing with the reserve in evidence...

We are talking about the same thing.  You have outlined in red a rope that is attached to the handle (loop) on the side of the container.  All of the ropes that I have been talking about are also attached to those loops.  Those ropes are not part of the parachute.  Who put them on those loops and for what reason is unknown.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5603 on: May 11, 2020, 11:27:07 PM »
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In my jumping experience, one of these snaps almost always came unfastened during the opening.
 

Where would you get an idea like that? Not even close. Just because your friend apparently failed to hook one up correctly once...

Where would I get an idea like that?  By looking at the snaps after the main canopy opened.  Elementary, Dr. Dudeman17.  If both snaps are securely fastened before the exit, and then one is unfastened after the opening, ergo, etc.!  This was a common problem in the 1960s.

Now you have them coming off when the main opens, not just the reserve. Okay. Wow.





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Do you have experience jumping with belly mounted reserves?

Absolutely. I went through student status and made my first however many jumps on them. I've watched thousands of student jumps on them (including many reserve rides, whether they were needed or not). I've known many people who were active jumpers in the 60's, 70's, and on. They were my instructors, mentors, and friends. Not once have I had, seen, nor heard of one of those snaps coming off the D-ring during the opening of either canopy.

Early accuracy jumpers would often unhook one of the snaps after the main opened and hang the reserve off to the side. They did that on purpose for a better view on their final approach. Perhaps you have seen pictures of that and extrapolated it into 'personal experience' where it was a 'common problem'.

If every jumper I knew was having that happen from time to time, and they were, then I consider it a common problem.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5604 on: May 11, 2020, 11:37:25 PM »
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I'm wondering if the rope could be used to attach gear? the pix are not from the hijacking...it's a chute for sale...

THIS LISTING IS FOR ONE (1) 24 Ft. Chest (Front) Horizontal Parachute Pack
- Dated Oct. 1961 -
- Pack container Date Of Manufacture is 1985
- Parachutes color unknown, parachute pack olive drab green
 - Printed date of manufacture
- We've maintained the integrity of the pack and have not opened it to picture suspension lines, Never opened. Complete.
- Uncertain if pilot chute present
 - Parachute seems to be in very good condition 
- Photos are of actual item you are bidding on
- Un-opened, untested

The remaining Cooper reserve with the pink canopy is a military surplus.  When used in sports jumps in the early 1960s, we looped a strap through those end loops and through the lower main parachute harness in order to keep the reserve from flapping around.  Otherwise, there were just the two snaps for the D-rings and the chute could flap up and down.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5605 on: May 11, 2020, 11:38:09 PM »
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Quote
Cooper's reserves were sport jumping gear.

The belly chutes?

The belly chutes were military surplus.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5606 on: May 11, 2020, 11:40:02 PM »
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Quote
Cooper's reserves were sport jumping gear.

The belly chutes?

Yes. They might be military surplus in origin, but they came from Sky Sports, a civilian sport dz. Which, of course you know, but the point is that any military mods would probably be removed.

Probably the only modification of any consequence would be the removal of the pilot chute.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5607 on: May 11, 2020, 11:57:05 PM »
Shutter,  Go to DropZone and take a look at posts #61861 by Flyjack and #61862 by Dudeman17.  The frayed cords in the picture of Linn Emrick with several chest reserves are exactly what we have been talking about here.  But their purpose is still not known.

Shutter, Also take a look at posts #61855 and #61860 while you are at DropZone.

Dudeman17, Were your first several jumps "static line" ones?  When you started free fall training did you have instructors along side you during the free falls?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 11:58:25 PM by Robert99 »
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5608 on: May 12, 2020, 12:01:49 AM »
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Shutter,  Go to DropZone and take a look at posts #61861 by Flyjack and #61862 by Dudeman17.  The frayed cords in the picture of Linn Emrick with several chest reserves are exactly what we have been talking about here.  But their purpose is still not known.

Shutter, Also take a look at posts #61855 and #61860 while you are at DropZone.

Dudeman17, Were your first several jumps "static line" ones?  When you started free fall training did you have instructors along side you during the free falls?

Is it possible the The frayed cords, have no purpose?  Just extraneous cordage that serves no purpose ... like the ends of shoe laces that flap in the wind ?

Melting the para cord ends is no accident and has been done on purpose by somebody, to stop fraying.  Boy scouts, sailors, climbers etc do that.

I know nothing about chutes, but 'ergo' - a melted para cord end was done by someone on purpose. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 12:58:30 AM by georger »
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5609 on: May 12, 2020, 02:28:51 AM »
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Dudeman17, Were your first several jumps "static line" ones?  When you started free fall training did you have instructors along side you during the free falls?

Question 1 yes, 2 no. In those days (I started in '79), student training was a static line progression. You did 5 static lines, including 3 dummy ripcord pulls. Then you did a clear and pull, then 3 each of 5 second delays,10's, 15's and 20's. Those were all solo jumps, the instructor watching from the plane. Then you did a 30 or longer, the instructor would follow you out and dock on you. That was your 'first pin', and your student graduation jump. Your next 10 jumps were supposed to be solo's or 2-ways. I'm guessing your training was the same or similar? Did you start in the military or sport?

Instructor assisted freefall training, called AFF (Accelerated Free Fall), doesn't involve static line at all, all jumps are from full altitude. That training method started becoming prevalent about the mid-80's, and student gear was all piggyback by then. I've been an AFF instructor since '90, a Tandem instructor since '91.
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