I called Darren a few weeks back and told him that a cool concept for a future episode of The Cooper Vortex podcast would be to debate two competing theories.

With this in mind, may I suggest Flyjack and I debate the money find and/or Western Flight Path? I think it would be a kick ass episode and give people the opportunity to hear each of us in real time make the case for each our theories.

Darren? Fly?

I'm game.

Doubt that will happen..however, I can see him starting a law firm with Robert since they both like to toss law suits around occasionally 

Cooper was not a dummy.  He probably discovered the dummy chute with the X was a Dummy. He had told them "no funny stuff" and then that marked dummy chute gets delivered!        And no back pack as requested!     

I dont recall Tina ever being asked or stating 'the color of the lines' he had around the bank bag, tied around his waste, when she last saw him? Pink lines or white lines?

He may have split the money up between two containers ... using the dummy chute as a second container?  The Tina Bar money may be the remains of money that was in the second dummy chute container   (just a thought)   ... dredged up in'74 ?

 

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Or Smith vs Dudeman on parachutes. If I understand Dude's post today he sees cut lines from two chutes (cut by Cooper) in an FBI photo? He says today:

" The pictures in the 'citizen sleuths' link:

Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve. "

Not sure if you're challenging that or just questioning it, but I'll try to clarify. I'm just going on what I know about parachutes, combined with what I see in those pictures, and the rest is pure speculation on my part.

The opened reserve on the plane with the cut lines - That whole canopy, including the lines, is pink. The only part of the lines that are not pink are the very ends where the loops are sewn (that's where they attach to the links in the container). (The whole thing seems to have been dyed after manufacture, which seems odd to me, but maybe that's how they did it in '59.) In the pictures of the container, you can see some lines coming off of it. They appear to be tied or larks headed to the corner, they are several inches long, then appear to be cut. Those lines would not normally be there, that's not a normal part of the container. Cooper was seen trying to tie stuff to himself, so I'm speculating that maybe he tried tying that container on, didn't like it and cut it off. Why else would those lines be there? Those lines are not pink, but white. All the lines on that reserve are pink. So where else would they come from, but the other (dummy) reserve? It's my understanding that the back rig left on the plane was unopened and intact, and presumably Cooper jumped the other back rig. Does that not make sense?

Who's Smith?

NO I didnt post to challenge you, but to emphasize (and thank you) for what could be an important observation missed so far!  Its hard to believe anything could have been missed in this 50 year long parachute debate but ... white line/pink lines ... lines cut from two different chutes .... this may be brand new? Can you post the photo or direct us to it? You mentioned the Citizen Sleuths site, Tom Kaye's site ??

We know from testimony Coop was pissed about not being given the back pack he asked for and immediately set about trying to make a container for the money - he said so and discussed it with both Tina and Hancock (read their testimony). A question Ive always had is: did he fashion two containers for the money?  or try two different versions of a container? We know he was seen cutting lines from one chute (pink) ...... did he actually open two chutes and cut lines from both ? One chute with pink lines .... a second chute with white lines?  If your observation is correct that may be exactly what he did.

I want to see the photo you are talking about .... 

This issue of packaging the money for jumping could explain why he asked for four chutes. Its simple. REDUNDANCY. Materials in case he needed to improvise after not being given something he asked for, the back pack .... which is exactly what happened!

Why didnt the FBI still get and deliver him a back pack ... they could have while the plane was still on the ground.  Did Cooper wave that off saying 'Im building a container'? ... so no further effort was made to get the back pack they forgot to bring him? That's one reason you ask for 4 chutes!  Its redundancy .... materials to work with ... in case something goes wrong. Its good thinking.  (The FAA Psychiatrist got it all wrong - wrong interpretation!)

*edit . . .   is this the photo you're talking about?

That white patch on the container just to the left of the ripcord handle in the bottom picture probably says "Pilot Chute Removed" or the equivalent.  Where the white ropes tied to the container handles comes from and their purpose is unknown at this point.

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Or Smith vs Dudeman on parachutes. If I understand Dude's post today he sees cut lines from two chutes (cut by Cooper) in an FBI photo? He says today:

" The pictures in the 'citizen sleuths' link:

Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve. "

Not sure if you're challenging that or just questioning it, but I'll try to clarify. I'm just going on what I know about parachutes, combined with what I see in those pictures, and the rest is pure speculation on my part.

The opened reserve on the plane with the cut lines - That whole canopy, including the lines, is pink. The only part of the lines that are not pink are the very ends where the loops are sewn (that's where they attach to the links in the container). (The whole thing seems to have been dyed after manufacture, which seems odd to me, but maybe that's how they did it in '59.) In the pictures of the container, you can see some lines coming off of it. They appear to be tied or larks headed to the corner, they are several inches long, then appear to be cut. Those lines would not normally be there, that's not a normal part of the container. Cooper was seen trying to tie stuff to himself, so I'm speculating that maybe he tried tying that container on, didn't like it and cut it off. Why else would those lines be there? Those lines are not pink, but white. All the lines on that reserve are pink. So where else would they come from, but the other (dummy) reserve? It's my understanding that the back rig left on the plane was unopened and intact, and presumably Cooper jumped the other back rig. Does that not make sense?

Note in other pictures of the pink container that the ends of the white lines tied to each of the container handles are really flared out.  These ends were either not cleanly cut or the lines had been used for something else originally.  They may not have been part of the original package recovered from the airliner.  Perhaps Tom Kaye has information on where they came from and what they were used for.

In my opinion, Cooper would have been really dumb to jury rig the missing reserve container to his parachute.  His chances of having a successful deployment of the main parachute would be greatest if he simply tied the money bag, not bags, to the front harness of the back pack and threw everything else out the rear of the aircraft.

We  now need to re-think what Cooper did with the chutes re- opening chutes and trying to rig containers plural for the money, prior to his jump.

FJ is now accepting that Dudeman has found something NEW:  FJ says:    "That a is good catch about those white cords,,,, looks like cooper tried different methods to attach the money and Tina didn't indicate what he finally went with.. Tina. "

Dudeman's original discovery post:

Dudeman at DZ:
" In the picture of the canopy laid out on the table, the lines at the near end, the far end is where the pilot chute would be, yet nothing is seen. No pilot chute on that rig.
That bundle of lines between the hardware in the container is a cross connector. The parts of the hardware that can be seen inside the container, those rectangular metal loops, are where the parachute lines attach. That hardware goes through holes in the container fabric, and the other end are those hooks/clips that are seen in other pictures. Those clips attach to the D-rings on the main harness. If one of those attachment points were to fail on opening, you'd lose tension on half of the lines, the canopy would collapse and you'd go in. That cross connector would hold that side of the hardware and prevent that collapse from happening.

Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve. "


relevant 302 segments posted by FJ attached...

Question: Does Dudeman's discovery now pose the question:  did Cooper jump with several containers after splitting the money up among several containers he had fabricated from chutes ?  Or was Tina's last observation of Cooper, as she turned around at the curtain, Cooper's last version of a container he jumped with?  (tying the original money bag around his waste? )

There are also short links of white cord wrapped around the folded pink shroud lines.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper folded those pink shroud lines and then tied them into a bundle.  It is equally unlikely that Cooper had anything to do with the white cords.  Again, the white cords on the container look like they have had a lot of use in the 35 to 40 years after the hijacking before Tom Kaye photographed them.

Why are you so obsessed with what Flyjack claims?

 

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Surely you read about Bruce Smith from the hundreds of posts made by Robert Blevins. his main topic is Shutter, Eric and Bruce on the DZ?

Bruce is a longtime researcher/publisher/investigative reporter on the Cooper saga with a site called The Mountain News..

Oops, sorry, my bad, I spaced that one. Of course I'm aware of Bruce Smith here. Just the way that 'debate' comment was phrased made me think there was maybe another jumper here named Smith.

The photos I was looking at were on this link that Flyjack posted at DZ:

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Note in other pictures of the pink container that the ends of the white lines tied to each of the container handles are really flared out.  These ends were either not cleanly cut or the lines had been used for something else originally.

I was thinking that if Cooper had tied that container to himself, then decided he didn't like the way it was, then cutting it back off it might have been in an awkward position resulting in the ragged cut.

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There are also short links of white cord wrapped around the folded pink shroud lines.

Those are just the ends of the same lines. See how there's a cut loop, kind of a knot, and the line sewn to itself? That's how the line is attached to the link. However it was that they dyed that whole thing, the line ends didn't get dyed. That can be seen more clearly in one of the other pictures.

I posted several photos from Kaye's site several posts above - here are a few more showing uneven dye.

The line of yours at DZ that interested me the most is this;

"Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve."

R99 seems to dispute your thinking ? 

each chute has hundreds of feet of line..why would you use line from another chute? kind of like having bullets for one gun but taking them out of another to use instead? it is an interesting observation though.

Perhaps a rigger should look at the photo's?

.

A rigger could be very helpful here.  The pink shroud lines would be tied to the metal links and the snap for those links would be through that slits on the back of the container.  The pinkish lines connecting the two metal links were to insure that the canopy would still function normally if one of the snaps came loose from the harness.  In the previous reserves that I have seen, these links were connected with a tape about the same size as the harness tape.  In my jumping experience, one of these snaps almost always came unfastened during the opening.

My skydiving instructor was also a rigger, and a NASA engineer, who decided one day that he wanted to open his reserve (which he had packed) during a jump rather than the main canopy.  As I watched from the ground, he did exactly that and then was quite busy trying to do something that had him horizontal to the ground for a while.  He landed without incident and then explained that one of the snaps on the reserve came undone during the opening and that he was unable to get it fastened again.  If those two snaps had not been interconnected, the reserve would have malfunctioned and he would have had to use his main canopy as a reserve.  So just one fastened snap will get the job done sometimes.

If Cooper cut the pink shroud lines from the container, then he would need several minute and a sharp knife to do so.  There are apparently two white lines on the right side of the container in the picture with Carol.  You can't get a single line wrapped around the handle four times as shown.  One of the white lines is probably under the container in that picture.  The number of white lines on the left side of the container cannot be determined from those pictures.

Assuming that those white lines came from the missing reserve, then Cooper would, as a minimum, have two money bags tied to himself or the harness of the missing back pack.   

Again, it would be nice for a rigger, familiar with surplus reserves from the 1970 era, to take a look at this. 

could the white rope be part of the container and not the parachute itself that was dyed pink? see photo of the clips being tied back..