Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1672793 times)

fcastle866 · « **Reply #5550 on:** May 08, 2020, 01:13:04 PM »

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... The back chutes he got were not sport mains, but pilot emergency bailout rigs....

... just go to the local flight service, those guys know Hayden so that's where they get the back chutes...

Can you clarify this Dude Man, please.

Hayden told me the chutes he gave to NWO were sport parachutes. Where did you get "pilot emergency bailout rigs." I know that Cossey talks NB6s and NB8s, and the FBI's 302s are a tad confusing. As a result, I'm just trying to keep the facts as straight as we can - at least for a moment.

Sure.

First, I'll clarify me. I am NOT a researcher in this case. I haven't read all the FBI docs, I don't study tie particles, flight paths, or money rot. I'm just an old skydiver who's always been fascinated with the case so I follow along. Most of what I think I know about it comes from reading folks such as yourselves on forums such as this one. I am an experienced skydiver. I've been jumping since '79, been an instructor since '90, and am/will be as current as the shutdowns allow. I am not a rigger, certainly wasn't one in '71, so I can't define specific details on specific models, but I do have a good general working knowledge of them. When I started, students and newer jumpers used the same type of old 'gutter gear' that was prevalent in Cooper's era.

It's my understanding that things happened as I described. When the FBI went looking for parachutes, one of the places they went was one of the local flight services on the airport. That's where they came up with Hayden, because the flight service knew him and knew he had chutes. Hayden was not a skydiver. He was a pilot who liked to fly aerobatics. The FAA requires aerobatic pilots to wear parachutes. The rigs they wear are not skydiving mains, but emergency bailout rigs. When Hayden told you his rigs were 'sport' rigs, he was probably saying that they were for civilian sport pilots, as opposed to military ones. The military has/had many types of emergency rigs. Some were the same/similar backpack rigs. As described elsewhere, some were the type where the crewman wore the harness, then would hook the chute onto it if needed, similar to front reserves. There were older types known as 'seat packs', where the canopy was in a flat square container located on the pilot's butt, that also served as his seat cushion. And, of course there are higher speed jet ejection systems, and the harnesses/containers/chutes are designed specifically for that particular system.

A couple other differences between bailout rigs and skydiving mains: Skydiving mains have the D-rings sewn into the harness, where the front reserves attach. Bailout rigs do not have D-rings. You don't attach a reserve to a bailout rig because a bailout rig IS a reserve. Bailout rigs and skydiving reserves are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger. As such, they have pack-and-data cards, and rigger's seals. Skydiving mains do not have cards or seals, they are usually just packed by the person jumping them.

Dudeman: Welcome to the Forum, you are the first new blood here in a while, I hope you stay.

For you, or anyone on here: In recent months there has been some new confusion on the chutes. For purposes of this post, I'm going to assume that what we knew from Bruce's book is pretty close to accurate. That is: 2 fronts, 2 backs. Cooper opened a reserve on the plane and left it, and he left a backpack. He jumped with a backpack and a reserve. Neither the backpack or the reserve have been found, which may indicate that the two went out of the plane together as one, on Cooper.

If the backpack and the reserve left the plane together with Cooper, how did he attach the reserve to the backpack or to his body? Were there D-rings on the reserve or the backpack, or did he tie it using the para cord? He has a 20 pound bag of money to contend with too.

EU · « **Reply #5551 on:** May 08, 2020, 01:55:23 PM »

I think it is all but certain that Cooper was delivered two emergency rigs (no D rings) and two reserves (one dummied). Moreover, that an emergency rig (NB6 w/ 28 foot canopy) and the dummy reserve were missing when the jet arrived in Reno.

Why leave with the dummy reserve?

Because he used it to store a portion of the ransom. Additionally, I'm certain he attached the dummy reserve to his person in a manner not too unlike how he would have attached the attache case to his person: Using shroud line cut from the other reserve (left on the jet).

georger · « **Reply #5552 on:** May 08, 2020, 02:55:04 PM »

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I think it is all but certain that Cooper was delivered two emergency rigs (no D rings) and two reserves (one dummied). Moreover, that an emergency rig (NB6 w/ 28 foot canopy) and the dummy reserve were missing when the jet arrived in Reno.

Why leave with the dummy reserve?

Because he used it to store a portion of the ransom. Additionally, I'm certain he attached the dummy reserve to his person in a manner not too unlike how he would have attached the attache case to his person: Using shroud line cut from the other reserve (left on the jet).

FLYJACK replies to you -

"There is no evidence or indication Cooper tied the briefcase to himself.. jumping with a briefcase tied to his body is extremely unlikely. Cooper said he would disarm or toss the bomb.

If Cooper put money into the dummy reserve then what happened to the chute inside, it is missing from the plane.. Cooper would have had to have thrown an open dummy chute off the plane,, makes no sense.

The reserve chute found left on was missing the drouge. Tina claimed he tied the money to his waist.. in part the chute that was left behind,, sounds like the drouge..
Best scenario,, Cooper used the drouge and cords from the chest chute left in the plane to wrap and tie the money to his waist.. "

Moreover, Tina did NOT describe Cooper had the brief case tied around his waste. (see Tina's testimony) Cooper told Tina he would disarm or toss the bomb. (see Tina's testimony) *For a guy who keeps advertising in the news media he has studied the Cooper Case for ten years ... you dont seem to have learned much!

Robert99 · « **Reply #5553 on:** May 08, 2020, 04:18:26 PM »

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I think it is all but certain that Cooper was delivered two emergency rigs (no D rings) and two reserves (one dummied). Moreover, that an emergency rig (NB6 w/ 28 foot canopy) and the dummy reserve were missing when the jet arrived in Reno.

Why leave with the dummy reserve?

Because he used it to store a portion of the ransom. Additionally, I'm certain he attached the dummy reserve to his person in a manner not too unlike how he would have attached the attache case to his person: Using shroud line cut from the other reserve (left on the jet).

FLYJACK replies to you -

"There is no evidence or indication Cooper tied the briefcase to himself.. jumping with a briefcase tied to his body is extremely unlikely. Cooper said he would disarm or toss the bomb.

If Cooper put money into the dummy reserve then what happened to the chute inside, it is missing from the plane.. Cooper would have had to have thrown an open dummy chute off the plane,, makes no sense.

The reserve chute found left on was missing the drouge. Tina claimed he tied the money to his waist.. in part the chute that was left behind,, sounds like the drouge..
Best scenario,, Cooper used the drouge and cords from the chest chute left in the plane to wrap and tie the money to his waist.. "

Moreover, Tina did NOT describe Cooper had the brief case tied around his waste. (see Tina's testimony) Cooper told Tina he would disarm or toss the bomb. (see Tina's testimony) *For a guy who keeps advertising in the news media he has studied the Cooper Case for ten years ... you dont seem to have learned much!

The poster-who-must-not-be-named and Flyjack are trying to make an issue out of a non-issue. By "drogue" I presume they are referring to a pilot parachute which has the job of pulling the main canopy out of the container and streaming it out so it can inflate fast. The pilot parachute contains a strong spiral spring and would not be of any use in attaching anything to the jumper.

But the reserve parachute here was obviously intended for skydivers and it probably had the pilot parachute removed as was the custom in the 1960s. That is, there was no pilot parachute, or drogue, in the reserve chest pack in the first place. And there was probably a notice sewn on the exterior of the reserve container stating exactly that. This was all FAA approved for skydivers for reasons that neither of the individuals named in the above paragraph have the ability to understand.

Tina said she saw Cooper tying the money bag to his waist, and apparently not to the parachute harness. If this actually happened, and Cooper managed to open the main parachute, he would have some really bad spinal problems.

ADDENDUM: Tom Kaye examined the chest parachute that was left on the aircraft and measured the lengths of the shroud lines that had been removed. Presumably, he also examined the container for that parachute. If so, did he notice a "Pilot Chute Removed", or similar wording, on the container?

EU · « **Reply #5554 on:** May 08, 2020, 04:22:50 PM »

I called Darren a few weeks back and told him that a cool concept for a future episode of The Cooper Vortex podcast would be to debate two competing theories.

With this in mind, may I suggest Flyjack and I debate the money find and/or Western Flight Path? I think it would be a kick ass episode and give people the opportunity to hear each of us in real time make the case for each our theories.

Darren? Fly?

I'm game.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #5555 on:** May 08, 2020, 06:44:55 PM »

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I called Darren a few weeks back and told him that a cool concept for a future episode of The Cooper Vortex podcast would be to debate two competing theories.

With this in mind, may I suggest Flyjack and I debate the money find and/or Western Flight Path? I think it would be a kick ass episode and give people the opportunity to hear each of us in real time make the case for each our theories.

Darren? Fly?

I'm game.

Let The GAMES begin!

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #5556 on:** May 08, 2020, 06:47:53 PM »

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...Based on the surviving Hayden parachute, it looks like Cossey had access to plenty of military surplus parts for parachutes....

R99, what do you see on Hayden's Pioneer/Steinthaul that looks like "plenty of military surplus parts?"

Robert99 · « **Reply #5557 on:** May 08, 2020, 08:08:21 PM »

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...Based on the surviving Hayden parachute, it looks like Cossey had access to plenty of military surplus parts for parachutes....

R99, what do you see on Hayden's Pioneer/Steinthaul that looks like "plenty of military surplus parts?"

It looks like it didn't start as a parachute produced by manufacturer. It looks like Cossey collected various parts from wherever he could find them and assembled them into a parachute.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #5558 on:** May 08, 2020, 11:03:32 PM »

This is the first I've heard about Cossey working on Hayden's rig and adding stuff to it. All I knew is that Cossey packed the Pioneer/Steinthaul in May 1971.

I know that Cossey claimed he cobbled together his NB8 - NB6 with a special rip cord, pocket protector, and something else that I forget, and that was the one he says he sent to Boeing Field, then on to Sea-Tac via the unidentified car, etc. You're not merging these details together, are you?

Robert99 · « **Reply #5559 on:** May 08, 2020, 11:11:17 PM »

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This is the first I've heard about Cossey working on Hayden's rig and adding stuff to it. All I knew is that Cossey packed the Pioneer/Steinthaul in May 1971.

I know that Cossey claimed he cobbled together his NB8 - NB6 with a special rip cord, pocket protector, and something else that I forget, and that was the one he says he sent to Boeing Field, then on to Sea-Tac via the unidentified car, etc. You're not merging these details together, are you?

As I understand the claims over the years, Cossey is the one that worked up and assembled Hayden's rigs in the first place. And the surviving one looks like it was assembled from a bunch of mis-matched parts. The ripcord for the surviving one looks like a stand issue ripcord. And standard issue everything else.

georger · « **Reply #5560 on:** May 08, 2020, 11:27:14 PM »

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I called Darren a few weeks back and told him that a cool concept for a future episode of The Cooper Vortex podcast would be to debate two competing theories.

With this in mind, may I suggest Flyjack and I debate the money find and/or Western Flight Path? I think it would be a kick ass episode and give people the opportunity to hear each of us in real time make the case for each our theories.

Darren? Fly?

I'm game.

Let The GAMES begin!

Non-starter. FJ will NEVER do it! For obvious reasons apparent to everyone! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

How about a debate between Elvis or Cook and a real geneticist ?

Or Smith vs Dudeman on parachutes. If I understand Dude's post today he sees cut lines from two chutes (cut by Cooper) in an FBI photo? He says today:

" The pictures in the 'citizen sleuths' link:

In the picture of the canopy laid out on the table, the lines at the near end, the far end is where the pilot chute would be, yet nothing is seen. No pilot chute on that rig.

That bundle of lines between the hardware in the container is a cross connector. The parts of the hardware that can be seen inside the container, those rectangular metal loops, are where the parachute lines attach. That hardware goes through holes in the container fabric, and the other end are those hooks/clips that are seen in other pictures. Those clips attach to the D-rings on the main harness. If one of those attachment points were to fail on opening, you'd lose tension on half of the lines, the canopy would collapse and you'd go in. That cross connector would hold that side of the hardware and prevent that collapse from happening.

Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve. "

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #5561 on:** May 09, 2020, 02:18:15 AM »

I've never heard anyone say that Earl Cossey did any work on a Hayden parachute other than pack them.

In fact, Earl Cossey never told me that he did so - and he LIKED to talk - so if he had, I am sure he would have told me something along those lines.

Further, Norman Hayden said that he had never met Earl Cossey. Not sure how Coss could have packed Norm's chutes without those two guys meeting, but it might be possible. For instance, when Norman arranged to buy the chutes from Pacific Aviation*, Barry Halstead, the salesperson, might have made the arrangements with Coss.

I don't know if that happened. Further, I asked Norm how the chutes got packed by Coss without them ever meeting and he just shrugged his shoulders. Was Norm lying? Maybe. Did he forget? Maybe, after all it was 40+ years. But Hayden and Cossey do seem to have some kind of previous relationship. Coss hated Hayden and called him a "piece of shit."

Similarly, Hayden terminated all contact with me because he didn't want to get into a public dispute with Cossey over the chutes, and he felt that if he continued talking to me I'd continue to write about it, and that would cause him problems with other, unnamed financial people and contractors.

*(Note: Not "Boeing Flight Services" or any other kind of "Flight Services" - that is a blatant falsehood in the 302 summary on chutes).

dudeman17 · « **Reply #5562 on:** May 09, 2020, 03:58:49 AM »

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Or Smith vs Dudeman on parachutes. If I understand Dude's post today he sees cut lines from two chutes (cut by Cooper) in an FBI photo? He says today:

" The pictures in the 'citizen sleuths' link:

Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve. "

Not sure if you're challenging that or just questioning it, but I'll try to clarify. I'm just going on what I know about parachutes, combined with what I see in those pictures, and the rest is pure speculation on my part.

The opened reserve on the plane with the cut lines - That whole canopy, including the lines, is pink. The only part of the lines that are not pink are the very ends where the loops are sewn (that's where they attach to the links in the container). (The whole thing seems to have been dyed after manufacture, which seems odd to me, but maybe that's how they did it in '59.) In the pictures of the container, you can see some lines coming off of it. They appear to be tied or larks headed to the corner, they are several inches long, then appear to be cut. Those lines would not normally be there, that's not a normal part of the container. Cooper was seen trying to tie stuff to himself, so I'm speculating that maybe he tried tying that container on, didn't like it and cut it off. Why else would those lines be there? Those lines are not pink, but white. All the lines on that reserve are pink. So where else would they come from, but the other (dummy) reserve? It's my understanding that the back rig left on the plane was unopened and intact, and presumably Cooper jumped the other back rig. Does that not make sense?

Who's Smith?

Shutter · « **Reply #5563 on:** May 09, 2020, 08:04:06 AM »

Surely you read about Bruce Smith from the hundreds of posts made by Robert Blevins. his main topic is Shutter, Eric and Bruce on the DZ?

Bruce is a longtime researcher/publisher/investigative reporter on the Cooper saga with a site called The Mountain News..

Shutter · « **Reply #5564 on:** May 09, 2020, 08:27:42 AM »

Quote

"There is no evidence or indication Cooper tied the briefcase to himself.. jumping with a briefcase tied to his body is extremely unlikely. Cooper said he would disarm or toss the bomb.

Cooper said he would either disarm the bomb or take it with him...nothing about "tossing it"

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1672793 times)

fcastle866

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

EU

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

EU

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

dudeman17

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case