Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1823314 times)

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #555 on: December 20, 2014, 11:47:46 PM »
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 11:49:29 PM by Robert99 »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #556 on: December 21, 2014, 12:16:49 AM »
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

La invasión de Bahía de Cochinos en 1961. El secuestro fue en 1971.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #557 on: December 21, 2014, 12:26:07 AM »
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 12:32:13 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #558 on: December 21, 2014, 12:43:54 AM »
Quote
The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

Here is the receipt for the cash. signed by George Harrison. (see photo)


 

Moriarty

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #559 on: December 21, 2014, 01:13:40 PM »
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #560 on: December 21, 2014, 01:23:14 PM »
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?

It is highly unlikely that Tosaw embellished anything.  In fact, he did some serious investigations in the Tina Bar area at his own expense.  Reportedly, he spent more than $10,000 of his on money (which went a lot further during his time) researching the Tina Bar possibilities.
 

Moriarty

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #561 on: December 21, 2014, 02:08:17 PM »
I couldn't care less what anyone thinks but a fundamental of the case is the belief in a just world. What are we, Cooper researchers, trying to resolve here?

When justice is not forthcoming from a higher authority, people will and do take justice into their own hands. Acts of vengeance are the result. Cooper's actions at the very primitive reflect that. The motives and the goals of Cooper are the same of us, the pursuit of justice. It's just that Coopers perception of justice differs from us, it has no limits, and that is important. Cooper carries a bomb. He faces jail time. He jumps into the dark into wind blast. Those risk taking are self-destructive. With such a cost for risk, vengeance must be shared. Cooper  is often seen as a Robin Hood figure and it's because the banks have robbed Cooper, Cooper robs the banks back, in fact he cycles that behaviour, when getting money offering the crew some money, giving money.

In the original notes, Cooper demands the money, then he will let the passengers go, then he wants the chutes. This isn't the way it goes down (thought overcomes feeling) but originally, Cooper doesn't mind the passengers to witness the money and before anyone argues that the passengers see it as just a bag, Cooper sees it as a bag of money.
 

Moriarty

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #562 on: December 21, 2014, 02:15:16 PM »
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?

It is highly unlikely that Tosaw embellished anything.  In fact, he did some serious investigations in the Tina Bar area at his own expense.  Reportedly, he spent more than $10,000 of his on money (which went a lot further during his time) researching the Tina Bar possibilities.

That's nice.
Let me rephrase, unlikely or not, is there any dispute over Tosaw adding conjecture for the sake of the book, making it more readable, for instance?

 

Moriarty

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #563 on: December 21, 2014, 02:17:54 PM »
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #564 on: December 21, 2014, 03:08:43 PM »
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See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.


All the transcripts I have read would agree to this the stairs matter and that chain of communication. Tosaw interviewed Tina by phone.

Is there any dispute over Tosaw embeliishing the facts for the sake of the book?

It is highly unlikely that Tosaw embellished anything.  In fact, he did some serious investigations in the Tina Bar area at his own expense.  Reportedly, he spent more than $10,000 of his on money (which went a lot further during his time) researching the Tina Bar possibilities.

That's nice.
Let me rephrase, unlikely or not, is there any dispute over Tosaw adding conjecture for the sake of the book, making it more readable, for instance?

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever claimed previously that Tosaw embellished his book.  And as I stated above, that possibility is highly unlikely, or more probably, somewhere below zero.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #565 on: December 21, 2014, 03:15:28 PM »
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?

Professor Moriarty, with your last question above, it is obvious that you have not read the closed Cooper thread on DZ, the existing Cooper thread on DZ (you can basically ignore the last two or three years of that thread), the present Shutter thread, Himmelsbach's book, Tosaw's book, or even the newspaper stories about the hijacking.  After reading the above sources, you won't need to ask such questions.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #566 on: December 21, 2014, 03:41:44 PM »
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?

I assume you mean: 'how far west of V23'? That estimate has been left to R99 and Hominid, because lacking concrete data (of some kind), all anyone can do is speculate and imo it is people like R99 and Hom who have the best assets to  be making an intelligent assessment.

If you have new data, please present it!

People have been trying to unite the flight path with the money, since Feb 14th 1980. That gave rise to the Washougal Theory with JT providing 'insider' info that 305 had crossed at Troutdale - and that turned out to be suspect. Tom Kaye and Blevins accept the FBI map because "some smart guys" put that together. Maj Dawson surfaced in an interview and said 305 had flown a straight line between Toledo and the tip of Hayden Island. R2 says that he brought a T33 and 305 together just west of Lake Oswego, south of Portland. Tosaw, after talking to a number of officials, thought Cooper had cratered somewhere in the flood zone very close to the Columbia and Tina Bar - and he invested time and money dragging that area at several locations.

And until unredacted transcripts or radar data or something surfaces to better clarify the actual path 305 flew, this problem is probably going to sit unresolved forever, because without enough known data points in the drop zone, no better analysis can be done than already is being done.

The only exception I see to moving the flight path west to account for the money at Tina Bar, is some hitherto unknown fact like say dredging material from Hayden Island or somewhere in that area was put on the Fazio property which then yielded the Tina Bar, in some flood scenario?
     

   



     
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #567 on: December 21, 2014, 03:44:46 PM »
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"Cooper agreed to leave them up, but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take-off with the stairs down."

Did Tosaw give a footnote to his origin on this? Did he quote it as the interview with Tina?

The bank gave Cooper the money. Later they got reimbursed. At the time of the crime, a bank gave Cooper the money, although at the time it could be argued that the money came through NWO, if (it's a big if) Cooper's grudge was with some bank, then justice was restored.

While I have your attention, why did 305, so right in their hijacking procedures, somewhat aware of Cooper bail time, fly through Portland? I notice on the FBI map there are a few "x".s next to flight path at this point? Did they veer away from a populated city or stick to V23?

See page 28 of Tosaw's book for the description of the aft stairs up or down matter.  Tina relayed Cooper's communications to the cockpit crew and they in turn relayed at least some of it to Paul Soderlind in MSP.  Tosaw does not give a source but he may have had access to the formal files since he was an FBI agent.  Also, I understand that he actually interviewed Tina some time after the hijacking.

The bank gave NWA the money in return for some paperwork meant they would get their money back.  So the bank was never in danger of suffering any financial loss from the hijacking.

In reality, despite the maps you may be looking at, there is not any real evidence that the hijacked airplane actually overflew Portland on V-23 or any other way.  In fact, the times and locations on those maps do not support an overflight of Portland.

But there is some evidence on those same maps that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side, in which case it would come very close to Tina Bar.  Himmelsbach's description of what he did in the Army helicopter that night, plus Tosaw's book, plus still other information in the FBI's "Notes" and elsewhere, indicate that all the aerial activity in the Portland area related to the hijacked airliner was on the west side of Portland.

The banks "loaned" NWA the cash.

The time and place of the T33 rendezvous with 305 near Lake Oswego, according to R2 who brought them together, indicates an approach from the northwest by the T33's with 305 having been west of Portland. R2 says he cannot confirm 305 flew straight over Portland because he was busy with the T33's at that time - R2 simply says he 'assumed' 305 had flown straight down the middle of V23 but he could not swear that is what happened. He says when he brought the T33 and 305 together, 305 was west off V23.

Whoa. has it been stated, real or supposed, by how much?

Professor Moriarty, with your last question above, it is obvious that you have not read the closed Cooper thread on DZ, the existing Cooper thread on DZ (you can basically ignore the last two or three years of that thread), the present Shutter thread, Himmelsbach's book, Tosaw's book, or even the newspaper stories about the hijacking.  After reading the above sources, you won't need to ask such questions.

On the the hand, he may have read that material and knows something new, or has a better idea - if he will disclose it and stop shaking the tree to see what falls out ?   8)  He or she may be toying with this. It would not be the first time people did that!  :D
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 03:46:28 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #568 on: December 21, 2014, 03:53:24 PM »
According to Carr no radar data was ever taken from the Air Force, or at least he gave that impression. I'll look for his quote, but he says nothing was found, and he didn't think the Air Force would hand over the data.

Here is what Carr says about the radar data:

"As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI."
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 04:31:46 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #569 on: December 21, 2014, 05:26:09 PM »
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According to Carr no radar data was ever taken from the Air Force, or at least he gave that impression. I'll look for his quote, but he says nothing was found, and he didn't think the Air Force would hand over the data.

Here is what Carr says about the radar data:

"As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI."

That is a very accurate synopsis of the matter. The FBI does not store AF records.