Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1562018 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3480 on: October 21, 2018, 10:54:31 PM »
Ease up on the name calling... :nono:
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3481 on: October 21, 2018, 11:22:32 PM »
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One could argue "get the show on the road" was just common to that generation and time frame.
But I wonder if it was more common in certain contexts. Here's a american-in-vietnam war plane reference (snippet)

its origin may be the Chicago area during the circus era early 20th Cent... says one linguist.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3482 on: October 22, 2018, 02:47:12 AM »
For all you newbies out there, the past twenty pages in this thread remind me of the DZ - great facts, sound analysis, near-constant bickering and name calling.

Ah, the good ol' days. As much as I love Snowmman, his snotty attitude is hard to live with. Others had trouble too, and Snow got kicked off the DZ for awhile, if I recall, for unrepentant behavior.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3483 on: October 22, 2018, 07:51:27 AM »
Hey Snow, if I might ask, why did you choose now to leap back in with both feet?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3484 on: October 22, 2018, 01:23:59 PM »
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Fly, explain no presents of paper bands were never found between the bills?
according to Tom Kaye, city dumps have issues with thin newspaper degrading...

IMO, the bills would of protected the bands from weather a lot longer..not the sides or exposed area's...

Tom states:
Definitely not as long as bills but the ones between the bills would have still been there. They have a problem with newsprint never degrading in dumps etc.

Tk

So, anybody guess what washing bills in liquid dish detergent would do to trace "evidence"?



Georger.. from DZ

"I do know this, however: Brian Ingram told me that all bill
bundles were taken to his home and his parents seperated the
bills using liquid dish detergent.
These bills were seperated at the
Ingram home before they were deleivered to the Portland FO."
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3485 on: October 22, 2018, 01:37:47 PM »
What evidence would have been washed away, the bank bands?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3486 on: October 22, 2018, 02:34:31 PM »
sure bank bands could have been washed away.
But it would be odd that they mentioned crumbling rubber bands to FBI from the find, but not bank bands in the sink, if that was true?

I wonder how the Ingram's comments about rubber bands was introduced into everything. Did the FBI ask specifically, or did the Ingrams volunteer that when asked about whether anything was holding the bundles together or what.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3487 on: October 22, 2018, 02:46:15 PM »
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What evidence would have been washed away, the bank bands?

Bank bands would have been long gone, using dish soap on the money could destroy any trace chemicals that MIGHT remain and other evidence.

Brian said the rubber band frags "crumbled" away when money was picked up. I searched for a location or evidence of those rubber band frags and nothing but very vague descriptions. Rubber bands around a single bundle (group of packets) could be attached to the top and bottom bill of the stack of 3.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3488 on: October 22, 2018, 04:26:09 PM »
This is a canopy drift musing

Was reviewing old posts of mine from DZ.com
I threw out some numbers that said an 8 mile canopy drift was possible.
then showed a line from the flight path crossing the Columbia to Tena Bar, and said around 8 miles
(the attachment from then has a pin saying 2015. The explanation of that is below)

I'm surprised I didn't draw the line from Tena Bar to the closest point on the flight path. That might have made more sense.
We got into debate about the wind direction down there that night. There were old reports with surface winds at PDX, but I think things weren't definitive.

In fact, my post says I was a fan of SE winds down near PDX..so that would align with my drawing

old post:

I'm a fan of predicted SE winds down there, although that's debatable. (edit) remember I had posted stuff that suggests SE might be right.

..

I'm going to assume we don't have accurate wind data down near PDX, and instead think about might make it work.

I was interested in whether an 8 mile or so canopy drift was possible. Assume winds were at 60 knots at exit, linearly decreasing to 20 knots at ground level. Can use 40 knot average then. Maybe also throw in 5 knots if the round chute somehow got some forward speed? So 45 knots total (avg) during the ride.

That's .75 miles/minute, right? (edit) just noticed I used wrong conversion here...45 knots would be .86 miles/minute. 40 knots is 0.77 miles/minute. I'll leave my old numbers below.

A 10 minute canopy ride would get you 7.5 miles.

(maybe the exit altitude was >10,000 ft down near PDX?)

See attached photo for a canopy drift possibility I was measuring way back in the thread. Swing it a bit to shorten it from the flight path, and you can see that 8 miles is interesting.

This is assuming 1000ft/min. descent rate

<snipped musing since we now know it's unlikely the NB6 had canopy mods, since Hayden's emergency rig>

(edit) the pt labelled "2015 guess" in the picture really isn't 2015..that's an old guess from before Ckret gave us the radar tick flight path detail. 2015 is closer to the columbia.

(edit) also remember there could be 0.5 mi to 1 mile error in the flight path recorded that could work favorably. The paper on comparing gps to radar suggested to me the 0.5 nm error prediction back in 1972 might be "light". Plus there is transcription error to map?

« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 04:33:51 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3489 on: October 22, 2018, 04:30:25 PM »
I had also posted some stuff on all the possible places the dredge material on Tena Bar may have been sucked or dug up from.

Is there any consensus on where the dredge spoils from Tena Bar came from?

I also had raised the issue that a digger might have been used for some dredge spoils as opposed to the suction dredge that was around..i.e. both may have been used.

I had been a fan of Cooper jumping in the Columbia near PDX, with a digger or suction dredge getting spoils/money and transporting to Tena Bar.   

Regardless of what Tom said about deposit areas on Tena Bar, did anyond do work tracing the source of dredge spoils on Tena Bar?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3490 on: October 22, 2018, 05:51:34 PM »
Just realized I have a hard time believing Tom Kaye pinpointed the money find location accurately from the photos.
Looking at a photo on his site, he overlayed a photo that's very similar to the one I posted (from the air) onto current google earth

You can see the people faintly in the photo, and the areas where the surface is disturbed as part of the search

Yet, he pinpoints the money find location has being far away from where the majority of the people are, and where all the surface has been disturbed. That's hard to believe. I would think they would start digging/disturbing near the money find.

I'm not sure why the money find location he marked, makes sense with the photo and photo overlay

attached two pics (the 2nd, overlay one is from Tom's site, first is from newspaper as identified)

the two pics seem to be taken close in time. There are 4 unsearched but marked areas, in between two searched areas.
The larger searched area is to the right, smaller to the left. I would guess the smaller searched area to the left might be close to the money find area?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:54:10 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3491 on: October 22, 2018, 06:00:50 PM »
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Fly, explain no presents of paper bands were never found between the bills?
according to Tom Kaye, city dumps have issues with thin newspaper degrading...

IMO, the bills would of protected the bands from weather a lot longer..not the sides or exposed area's...

Tom states:
Definitely not as long as bills but the ones between the bills would have still been there. They have a problem with newsprint never degrading in dumps etc.

Tk

So, anybody guess what washing bills in liquid dish detergent would do to trace "evidence"?



Georger.. from DZ

"I do know this, however: Brian Ingram told me that all bill
bundles were taken to his home and his parents seperated the
bills using liquid dish detergent.
These bills were seperated at the
Ingram home before they were deleivered to the Portland FO."

nobody said they waSHED ALL THE BILLS IN DETERGENT!  :rofl:

KEEP INVENTING STUFF FOR YOUR SCI FI NOVEL.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3492 on: October 22, 2018, 06:01:07 PM »
in looking at the air photo from the newspaper, and the google overlay, it seems like either

tom didn't scale the photo to the google earth correctly
or
the water level of the columbia was much lower for the newspaper photo, compared to the current google earth

I'm wondering how much variation in water level occurs, and whether the money find could have been at "some" water level..just not a level that the river was at in 1980 during the find.

Somehow, Tom's photo work doesn't give me confidence. It's key to understanding claims about how far from the water the money was found
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3493 on: October 22, 2018, 06:01:59 PM »
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sure bank bands could have been washed away.
But it would be odd that they mentioned crumbling rubber bands to FBI from the find, but not bank bands in the sink, if that was true?

I wonder how the Ingram's comments about rubber bands was introduced into everything. Did the FBI ask specifically, or did the Ingrams volunteer that when asked about whether anything was holding the bundles together or what.

WHAT BANK BANDS? THERE WERE NO BANK PAPER BANDS!  :conspiracy:
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3494 on: October 22, 2018, 06:03:47 PM »
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What evidence would have been washed away, the bank bands?

Bank bands would have been long gone, using dish soap on the money could destroy any trace chemicals that MIGHT remain and other evidence.

Brian said the rubber band frags "crumbled" away when money was picked up. I searched for a location or evidence of those rubber band frags and nothing but very vague descriptions. Rubber bands around a single bundle (group of packets) could be attached to the top and bottom bill of the stack of 3.

YEPPER! ONE WHOLE BOTTLE PER BILL ... YEPPER!

THE TOOTH FAIRY TOLD LFY JACK AKA BULLJAX