Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1675058 times)

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3390 on: October 21, 2018, 12:40:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm afraid I'm missing something regarding this entire debate. More to the point, what the hell does this have to do with the price of tea in China? How does paper-bands versus no-paper-bands get you any closer to determining Cooper's identity? Is this really going to help settle whether the money washed up on shore and buried itself? Or, if Cooper survived or died? It seems to me you're getting caught up in the weeds.

The reality is that there is ample evidence to argue those points outside of whether there were paper bands or not.

Put another way:

1) If you believe the FBI flight path and jump zone are accurate, human intervention was involved with the Tena Bar money.

2) If you believe the money washed up on Tena Bar and self buried itself you are asking for a lot of circumstances to fall into place perfectly otherwise this becomes impossible.

3) If you believe in the dredge theory a lot of explaining has to accompany that too considering Tom Kaye's fine work regarding Tena Bar.

In my diseased mind, the fact that there was no body found, no parachute found, no attache case found, no bank bag found, no shroud lines found, not a single $20 bill found blowing in the wind, no missing persons reports, and three packets (the Ingram's description of what they discovered) of cash buried with degraded rubber bands still intact, suggests to me that Cooper survived and buried those three packets for some reason.

With this in mind, suspects may be vetted irrespective of paper bands.

I tend to agree!

Paper or rubber, each has forensic value in this case. The Ingrams claim it was rubber. Others claim it was rubber. So far only FLYJACK insists it was paper (because of packets vs packages vs bundles vs trundles and dundles and whatchamacallits). Maybe I just made a mistake ... maybe FLYJACK is saying both paper and rubber bands were involved because this money was assembled as "chains of bricks" which is an actual bank term!  8)

WRONG,, Ingrams found rubber bands. I believe there were rubber band fragments on TBAR money.

There is evidence for both paper and rubber bands, my theory satisfies both.

The paper vs rubber bands is a sideshow.. even if you assume packets were in rubber bands the evidence doesn't make sense..

How does a TBAR "packet" get randomized and rubber banded by bank employee then found in 100's.. it doesn't. If it was already in rubber bands why re-band it in same amount. IT MAKES NO SENSE

There is something wrong with the dominant narrative.. the 3 packets being rubber banded into one bundle makes sense and fits the evidence, whether they were paper or rubber bands. There are other more speculative scenarios..
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 12:42:29 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Unsurelock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 351
  • Thanked: 53 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3391 on: October 21, 2018, 01:10:10 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So the theory is that rubber bands don't decompose as fast as currency straps?
That rubber bands would stay around, but currency straps wouldn't?

I thought the thinking was that rubber bands last a year or two?

Currency straps disappear from a rubber banded bundle in less than that time?

100% Paper bands in that environment would deteriorate quickly, months.

Fly, is this a guess, or do you have a reference?
 

Offline Unsurelock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 351
  • Thanked: 53 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3392 on: October 21, 2018, 01:30:42 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I look at this way...all the guys in the files? I'm betting if you looked at all the jump schools in the surrounding states you would find hundreds more that could be suspects, probably more..then lets take a look at the military files...how many jumpers do we have there that fit the description or skill sets? then look into all the aviation angles..it's possible Cooper was none of the above?

Cooper's description is not an uncommon one nor is the sketch. a scar or a crooked tooth could of sure helped out in this case..

we can read file after file of people calling or writing the FBI with someone who matches the description or sketch. we have a rather large pool of Coopers...an ocean of them.

Is it possible he is in the files, sure, just as possible as he died or lived....

My view is quite different:

1) Cooper knew about the 727 somehow. This limits a significant number of people.

2) Cooper was familiar with the Seattle area. This limits a lot of people.

2) Cooper likely had jumping experience. This limits a lot of people.

3) Cooper had to be in a position to acquire the tie particles. This is very limiting.

4) Cooper had to have an alibi. If Uncle Bob was in Memphis for Thanksgiving, he's not Cooper. This limits a significant number of people.

5) Cooper had to have a certain personality. This is quite limiting too. Most people would be viewed as "no way in hell Jim would do something like that."

6) Finally, Cooper had to roughly fit the description...mid 40s, 6', in good shape, black hair, high hairline, American or someone who spoke with no accent. This is actually very limiting too.

When you apply all of these criteria how many suspects can there really be? Truth be told, not many.

Then, of course, there are going to be other things such as DNA, unexplained money, etc.

I've been working on a spreadsheet based on census data that would calculate the "odds of being Cooper," for lack of a better term. I ran it past Meyer Louie, who is a Statistics professor, and he liked the idea. This would help rank candidates for Cooperhood. Still ironing out the details. Need data on one or two more attributes.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3393 on: October 21, 2018, 01:45:31 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm afraid I'm missing something regarding this entire debate. More to the point, what the hell does this have to do with the price of tea in China? How does paper-bands versus no-paper-bands get you any closer to determining Cooper's identity? Is this really going to help settle whether the money washed up on shore and buried itself? Or, if Cooper survived or died? It seems to me you're getting caught up in the weeds.

The reality is that there is ample evidence to argue those points outside of whether there were paper bands or not.

Put another way:

1) If you believe the FBI flight path and jump zone are accurate, human intervention was involved with the Tena Bar money.

2) If you believe the money washed up on Tena Bar and self buried itself you are asking for a lot of circumstances to fall into place perfectly otherwise this becomes impossible.

3) If you believe in the dredge theory a lot of explaining has to accompany that too considering Tom Kaye's fine work regarding Tena Bar.

In my diseased mind, the fact that there was no body found, no parachute found, no attache case found, no bank bag found, no shroud lines found, not a single $20 bill found blowing in the wind, no missing persons reports, and three packets (the Ingram's description of what they discovered) of cash buried with degraded rubber bands still intact, suggests to me that Cooper survived and buried those three packets for some reason.

With this in mind, suspects may be vetted irrespective of paper bands.

I tend to agree!

Paper or rubber, each has forensic value in this case. The Ingrams claim it was rubber. Others claim it was rubber. So far only FLYJACK insists it was paper (because of packets vs packages vs bundles vs trundles and dundles and whatchamacallits). Maybe I just made a mistake ... maybe FLYJACK is saying both paper and rubber bands were involved because this money was assembled as "chains of bricks" which is an actual bank term!  8)

WRONG,, Ingrams found rubber bands. I believe there were rubber band fragments on TBAR money.

There is evidence for both paper and rubber bands, my theory satisfies both.

The paper vs rubber bands is a sideshow.. even if you assume packets were in rubber bands the evidence doesn't make sense..

How does a TBAR "packet" get randomized and rubber banded by bank employee then found in 100's.. it doesn't. If it was already in rubber bands why re-band it in same amount. IT MAKES NO SENSE

There is something wrong with the dominant narrative.. the 3 packets being rubber banded into one bundle makes sense and fits the evidence, whether they were paper or rubber bands. There are other more speculative scenarios..

Ive said this since you started this bs over a year ago -

I have no idea what you are saying.

Could someone put whatever he is trying to say in English?

All mimsy were the borogroves, and the mome rathes outgrabe.
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3394 on: October 21, 2018, 01:58:23 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So the theory is that rubber bands don't decompose as fast as currency straps?
That rubber bands would stay around, but currency straps wouldn't?

I thought the thinking was that rubber bands last a year or two?

Currency straps disappear from a rubber banded bundle in less than that time?

100% Paper bands in that environment would deteriorate quickly, months.

Fly, is this a guess, or do you have a reference?

It is from my reading the research on paper decomposition, although there are variables. There are different types of paper and processes that affect the speed of decomposition, but generally thinner paper and wetter conditions mean faster decomposition. The research suggests a range between 2-5 months.. but doing an experiment would be more accurate, though 1971 era "paper bank bands" may be different from today's.

This all started when I asked a simple question that nobody had thought through. A few still don't get it.

How did the 3 TBAR "packets" go from originally in 100's to random sized and rubber banded to found in 100's and rubber banded?

The best theory can resolve the evidence is the "packets" weren't random sized but the "bundles" (groups of packets) were. That means the 3 TBAR "packets" were one single bundle. This applies whether they were originally in paper or rubber bands. These are two separate arguments.

If the "packets" were originally in rubber bands and were found in 100's AND the Bank employee random sized and rubber banded the "Bundles" then he must have rubber banded and random sized the groups of packets aka one single bundle of packets.. to add to the confusion there were two Bank emergency ransom funds. The second was created right after NORJAK and included the 1500 bills from the first NOT given to Cooper.


There are other theoretical possibilities.. but very remote.

The 3 TBAR packets came from the 15 packets left behind and not given to Cooper and the FBI list is incorrect. Those packets were added to another Bank ransom fund but the bill range somehow changed.

Since the Bank had custody of the money and micro from the first Recordak, any change or payout required an update. We don't have any record for the chain of custody for the micro or the ransom fund. Any error and the FBI bill list is invalid. There was a 25k ransom paid out a year before that was never recovered, suspect caught Portland. If, for example, that was paid from that fund and the micro not updated the FBI bill list would be invalid.

The NORJAK money was altered afterward. Maybe rubber bands added. (I think this is what Snow is alluding to)











« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:13:14 PM by FLYJACK »
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3395 on: October 21, 2018, 02:14:54 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm afraid I'm missing something regarding this entire debate. More to the point, what the hell does this have to do with the price of tea in China? How does paper-bands versus no-paper-bands get you any closer to determining Cooper's identity? Is this really going to help settle whether the money washed up on shore and buried itself? Or, if Cooper survived or died? It seems to me you're getting caught up in the weeds.

The reality is that there is ample evidence to argue those points outside of whether there were paper bands or not.

Put another way:

1) If you believe the FBI flight path and jump zone are accurate, human intervention was involved with the Tena Bar money.

2) If you believe the money washed up on Tena Bar and self buried itself you are asking for a lot of circumstances to fall into place perfectly otherwise this becomes impossible.

3) If you believe in the dredge theory a lot of explaining has to accompany that too considering Tom Kaye's fine work regarding Tena Bar.

In my diseased mind, the fact that there was no body found, no parachute found, no attache case found, no bank bag found, no shroud lines found, not a single $20 bill found blowing in the wind, no missing persons reports, and three packets (the Ingram's description of what they discovered) of cash buried with degraded rubber bands still intact, suggests to me that Cooper survived and buried those three packets for some reason.

With this in mind, suspects may be vetted irrespective of paper bands.

I tend to agree!

Paper or rubber, each has forensic value in this case. The Ingrams claim it was rubber. Others claim it was rubber. So far only FLYJACK insists it was paper (because of packets vs packages vs bundles vs trundles and dundles and whatchamacallits). Maybe I just made a mistake ... maybe FLYJACK is saying both paper and rubber bands were involved because this money was assembled as "chains of bricks" which is an actual bank term!  8)

WRONG,, Ingrams found rubber bands. I believe there were rubber band fragments on TBAR money.

There is evidence for both paper and rubber bands, my theory satisfies both.

The paper vs rubber bands is a sideshow.. even if you assume packets were in rubber bands the evidence doesn't make sense..

How does a TBAR "packet" get randomized and rubber banded by bank employee then found in 100's.. it doesn't. If it was already in rubber bands why re-band it in same amount. IT MAKES NO SENSE

There is something wrong with the dominant narrative.. the 3 packets being rubber banded into one bundle makes sense and fits the evidence, whether they were paper or rubber bands. There are other more speculative scenarios..

Ive said this since you started this bs over a year ago -

I have no idea what you are saying.

Could someone put whatever he is trying to say in English?

All mimsy were the borogroves, and the mome rathes outgrabe.

and you continue to fail to recognize the obvious inconsistency in your own "theory"..
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3396 on: October 21, 2018, 02:24:30 PM »
Fly, explain no presents of paper bands were never found between the bills?
according to Tom Kaye, city dumps have issues with thin newspaper degrading...

IMO, the bills would of protected the bands from weather a lot longer..not the sides or exposed area's...

Tom states:
Definitely not as long as bills but the ones between the bills would have still been there. They have a problem with newsprint never degrading in dumps etc.

Tk
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:26:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3397 on: October 21, 2018, 02:38:53 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So the theory is that rubber bands don't decompose as fast as currency straps?
That rubber bands would stay around, but currency straps wouldn't?

I thought the thinking was that rubber bands last a year or two?

Currency straps disappear from a rubber banded bundle in less than that time?

100% Paper bands in that environment would deteriorate quickly, months.

Fly, is this a guess, or do you have a reference?


when trying to state things as fact, especially, dealing with this issue, you need scientific data to back the theory up..not data surrounding another area with a different environment..you need to speak with the Portland corps of Engineer's or someone involved with the Columbia river..

so many variables to consider before making any assumption a fact.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:42:13 PM by Shutter »
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3398 on: October 21, 2018, 02:44:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fly, explain no presents of paper bands were never found between the bills?
according to Tom Kaye, city dumps have issues with thin newspaper degrading...

IMO, the bills would of protected the bands from weather a lot longer..not the sides or exposed area's...

Tom states:
Definitely not as long as bills but the ones between the bills would have still been there. They have a problem with newsprint never degrading in dumps etc.

Tk

I can only speculate..

The 3 packets were found separated, the paper bands would deteriorate fairly quickly, there would be paper in between touching only for bills.. as the rubber bands broke apart and the packets separated those areas would become exposed.. the condition of the money was severely deteriorated, after years I doubt any evidence of paper bands would remain.

My reading suggests newspaper is a tougher paper and more importantly TBAR was very wet. Newspaper last a long time when "tightly compacted" and dry, the very wet TBAR environment induces many processes that degrade the paper quickly..

All I now is that the dominant narrative is wrong somewhere, my "one bundle" theory explains it whether paper or rubber bands were used..



 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3399 on: October 21, 2018, 02:53:25 PM »
seriously, you believe newspaper is tough, ever get it wet?

I can't stress enough that we DON'T have enough information on this..it's one sided since we can't question "memo's".
nobody seems to want to believe statements made by the guy who worked with the money. we don't even know who made the claim of different bands on the bills or the fact of it having them when the money was first put in place before Cooper.

It's all very interesting but you just can't lay claim to it being fact...
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3400 on: October 21, 2018, 02:58:05 PM »
3 packs found separate is not the case..they were on top of each other..that sounds like they were away from each other..
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3401 on: October 21, 2018, 02:59:23 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
seriously, you believe newspaper is tough, ever get it wet?

I can't stress enough that we DON'T have enough information on this..it's one sided since we can't question "memo's".
nobody seems to want to believe statements made by the guy who worked with the money. we don't even know who made the claim of different bands on the bills or the fact of it having them when the money was first put in place before Cooper.

It's all very interesting but you just can't lay claim to it being fact...

Look, I am telling you what I have read in the research about newspaper.. as far as degradation it is a tougher paper.

and I have NEVER claimed this theory as FACT.

This theory fits all the evidence. If they were initially in rubber bands it doesn't fit the evidence.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3402 on: October 21, 2018, 03:00:39 PM »
Quote
after years I doubt any evidence of paper bands would remain.

since you have the answers...does this imply only to the naked eye? how long before it couldn't be detected through testing?
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3403 on: October 21, 2018, 03:00:50 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
3 packs found separate is not the case..they were on top of each other..that sounds like they were away from each other..

yes, they were separate and touching.. point is the surfaces that would have paper bands are exposed or eroded.
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3404 on: October 21, 2018, 03:02:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
after years I doubt any evidence of paper bands would remain.

since you have the answers...does this imply only to the naked eye? how long before it couldn't be detected through testing?

Where the six bills that would have been in contact still intact and were they tested before any silver nitrate?