Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1674134 times)

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3180 on: October 19, 2018, 09:23:34 AM »
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The red x seems to have only been known by a few...Linn Emerick didn't know what the X meant, nor did his daughter in the video explain what color the X was...

discussion about the chutes start at around 3:35


There was no "RED" X. SP much later mentioned a RED X as did many on DZ, but it was likely an X with a red flap that got morphed into a "RED" X on DZ..

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3181 on: October 19, 2018, 09:28:08 AM »
nothing mentioned about any red flap that I know of...more likely to have a magic marker type X like the names written on the containers..(Johnson Coss)
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3182 on: October 19, 2018, 10:36:58 AM »
Bruce

What you're asking for, is an assessment of all the FBI memos, accounting for errors.
That is, what is the overall best assessment?
We know various memos have little typos, like the report from Reno on the evidence found, where the National Guard  misidentified the date of mfg for the found Pioneer rig (they said 1960..later memos corrected to 1957, which is correct)

The NB-6 is sage-green, nylon.
The Pioneer isn't.

The idea that the NB-6 had separate description for harness and container is wrong. That memo Shutter provided mixed language from the Pioneer description with the NB-6 description.

The NB-6 is an emergency rig. It wouldn't have some kind of "luxury civilian" harness.

The description of "luxury civilian" is bogus too. I think that must have come from Cossey.

We know exactly what Hayden's non-taken rig looks like. That is positively correlated 100% with FBI information. No one should confuse the situation by pretending Hayden's rig wasn't the non-taken one.

Now, it's perfectly fine to question why Hayden's Pioneer rig was described as luxury, civilian. I think maybe Cossey just misremembered and started thinking it was a Pioneer skydiving rig.

I'm not going to attach any memos, because this is all well covered. The only new thing to me was Shutter's memo. I don't know the date on that, but I suspect it was much later. So whatever SAC wrote that, he didn't know what he was looking at when he consulted old FBI memos.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 10:58:17 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3183 on: October 19, 2018, 10:45:05 AM »
<fixed ..the stew was Schaffner>

Okay here's a free consult for all the TV producers out there.

Why did Cooper order a bourbon and 7-up?
I think Himmelsbach liked to imply he was a heavy drinker (someone implied that).

But when you're getting your actor in-character for this scene, right before he's going to kick things off by handing the note to Schaffner, this is the frame of mind:

And so <..> learned to be patient or at least pretend to be. He had not felt patient. His stomach would twist into tight knots, and afterwards it took a couple shots of bourbon to ease the tension. But he soon learned the necessity of appearing patient, forcing all expression from his face. Retreating behind a glazed-eyed placid mask.


A separate question. After Schaffner wrote down the list of demands, and Cooper said "No fuss"...did Schaffner write that down as the last demand or not? I read one memo that said Schaffner wrote that down, although she was unsure whether it should be on the demand list.

"fuss" is  important I think. Even the FBI thought so. They referenced it a couple times in memos.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 11:12:56 AM by snowmman »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3184 on: October 19, 2018, 11:39:30 AM »
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nothing mentioned about any red flap that I know of...more likely to have a magic marker type X like the names written on the containers..(Johnson Coss)

Yes, the X and "Red" flap was mentioned in 2003 article.. not available.

"The Mystery of D.B. Cooper," by Musika Farnsworth, Parachutist, November 2003

It was repeated in a later updated version.. 2010

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"a large X and red closing flaps"

IMO, this is where the "red" got erroneously added to the X. DZ posters repeated it..  red, red , red... there was no red X. There was an X.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 11:39:49 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3185 on: October 19, 2018, 01:40:11 PM »
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<fixed ..the stew was Schaffner>

Okay here's a free consult for all the TV producers out there.

Why did Cooper order a bourbon and 7-up?
I think Himmelsbach liked to imply he was a heavy drinker (someone implied that).

But when you're getting your actor in-character for this scene, right before he's going to kick things off by handing the note to Schaffner, this is the frame of mind:

And so <..> learned to be patient or at least pretend to be. He had not felt patient. His stomach would twist into tight knots, and afterwards it took a couple shots of bourbon to ease the tension. But he soon learned the necessity of appearing patient, forcing all expression from his face. Retreating behind a glazed-eyed placid mask.


A separate question. After Schaffner wrote down the list of demands, and Cooper said "No fuss"...did Schaffner write that down as the last demand or not? I read one memo that said Schaffner wrote that down, although she was unsure whether it should be on the demand list.

"fuss" is  important I think. Even the FBI thought so. They referenced it a couple times in memos.

What is this text above taken from?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3186 on: October 19, 2018, 03:36:14 PM »
Unsurelock: fiction.

I'm having problems posting. (copy/paste? but weird, was fine before)

In any case, here's a photo of Emrick at Issaquah Sky Sports, next to a wall where chest packs are apparently hanging on the wall. I wonder if they grabbed the chest packs from this wall (and why would you hang a training rig on the same wall as rigs that will be used as life savers? Seems risky/error prone to me. There seems to have been plenty of others to pick from. This was in newspaper 12/1/71
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3187 on: October 19, 2018, 03:43:08 PM »
I just realized, that in that article, Emrick believed he had a suspect (12/1/71) and told FBI. Don't think we have FBI memo on that. Maybe need to check if something redacted might fit.

I had to compress the image to post, but the key sentences are:

"EMRICK TOLD the Press Monday that after seeing the composite drawing of the hijacker, he believes he knows who the hunted man may be. In fact, he said the man he has in mind has jumped at Sky Sports.

Emrick has notified the F.B.I. of this information"


and at the end of the article:

"Emrick said he has some admiration for the hijacker. "but if he is the fellow I think he is, I hope he gets caught."

So it's someone Emrick apparently didn't like so much?

The question for us is: Who is this person who jumped at Issquah, that Emrick tipped the FBI to?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3188 on: October 19, 2018, 03:56:35 PM »
sorry, posted this at wrong thread, reposting here.

Oh there was another paragraph where Emrick's wife also chimed in, agreeing about who they thought was the hijacker.
Also more detail on how Emrick picked the chutes.

"The middle-aged hijacker, described by the F.B.I as about six feet in height, 170 to 180 pounds and dark brown or black hair, may be an experienced jumper Emrick has known."

Hmm...interesting they say "has known". Not "knows"..i.e. it's someone he knew in the past.

"Emrick's wife also believes the man is the same person who is being hunted near Woodland in Clark County"


Also in the article, it says the Washington Aeronautic Commission had called Emrick Wed. afternoon requesting "four parachutes for two hijackers in Seattle"

"The head of the local jump center then learned that a Renton firm supplied the two backpack chutes and only chest pack chutes would be needed.

He first looked for a pair of older-type chutes because, Emrick said, he knew he "would never get them back again." He didn't have two of the older chutes, so Emrick gave them training parachutes.

UNKNOWN to him at the time was the fact that one chute was for ground training only and was non-functional"

So yeah, it's weird. Not clear if Emrick gave what he thought were both training parachutes, or didn't realize or what.

If it wasn't known to Emrick at the time, then who told him? Someone else at Issaquah Sky Sports the next day? or what? And who said for sure it was a non-functional training chute. Not Emrick I guess? And not FBI and not Cooper.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3189 on: October 19, 2018, 04:10:44 PM »
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Unsurelock: fiction.

I'm having problems posting. (copy/paste? but weird, was fine before)

In any case, here's a photo of Emrick at Issaquah Sky Sports, next to a wall where chest packs are apparently hanging on the wall. I wonder if they grabbed the chest packs from this wall (and why would you hang a training rig on the same wall as rigs that will be used as life savers? Seems risky/error prone to me. There seems to have been plenty of others to pick from. This was in newspaper 12/1/71

yes small things have changed here - when I used to post and save it would return to the thread I was posting in - that no longer works. I have to go back and click the thread open and find where I was at! So that memory function has been lost or ... maybe not getting the cookie for my browser that was active before ? Does this site instal cookies?   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3190 on: October 19, 2018, 04:14:50 PM »
That's a new problem I haven't heard yet G...have you cleared your browser cache? I'm trying to resolve the issues with the server so it might take some time to get all the kinks out...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3191 on: October 19, 2018, 04:19:45 PM »
also check where you do attachments and see if the box is checked that says "return to this topic"
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3192 on: October 19, 2018, 04:25:09 PM »
Here are better versions of the Issaquah Press 12/1/71 article that's readable. I broke it in two..the text article and the Emrick photo with chest rigs
(I was quoting this article above)
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3193 on: October 19, 2018, 04:38:17 PM »
From newspaper article Nov 19,1962 Spokane Daily Chronicle

Paul Marvin Clifford died during a night jump at Issaquah (age 23).
The article said he was president of the Boeing Employees Skydivers club. Athough it's weird, because Sheridan has claimed that title at various times.

Remember how the FBI thought there was no Boeing Skydivers club after '60/'61. Yet another confirmation (not just Sheridan) that it wasn't true.

Paul Clifford was a friend of Sheridan Peterson's. They were doing a night jump and Clifford went in as a no-pull. The article quotes Emrick as saying they were using flares and may have lost altitude awareness. It was Clifford's 292nd jump.

Sheridan felt a little guilty about it. He rambled about their reserves, saying they hadn't followed the rules in having them re-packed at the right interval by a rigger. Also felt bad because Clifford apparently was getting married, and Sheridan and others who had been divorced, were ribbing him about the bad choice in getting married.  ...Although, a no-pull should have nothing to do with either of those. I think Sheridan just felt bad cause he was there. Forget if he said they were doing a formation together or not.

There's another article (it was in the FBI memos) where it reports on a competition both Sheridan and Clifford jumped in.

here's Clifford's death
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attached the snippet
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 04:41:05 PM by snowmman »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #3194 on: October 19, 2018, 04:57:35 PM »
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sorry, posted this at wrong thread, reposting here.

Oh there was another paragraph where Emrick's wife also chimed in, agreeing about who they thought was the hijacker.
Also more detail on how Emrick picked the chutes.

"The middle-aged hijacker, described by the F.B.I as about six feet in height, 170 to 180 pounds and dark brown or black hair, may be an experienced jumper Emrick has known."

Hmm...interesting they say "has known". Not "knows"..i.e. it's someone he knew in the past.

"Emrick's wife also believes the man is the same person who is being hunted near Woodland in Clark County"


Also in the article, it says the Washington Aeronautic Commission had called Emrick Wed. afternoon requesting "four parachutes for two hijackers in Seattle"

"The head of the local jump center then learned that a Renton firm supplied the two backpack chutes and only chest pack chutes would be needed.

He first looked for a pair of older-type chutes because, Emrick said, he knew he "would never get them back again." He didn't have two of the older chutes, so Emrick gave them training parachutes.

UNKNOWN to him at the time was the fact that one chute was for ground training only and was non-functional"

So yeah, it's weird. Not clear if Emrick gave what he thought were both training parachutes, or didn't realize or what.

If it wasn't known to Emrick at the time, then who told him? Someone else at Issaquah Sky Sports the next day? or what? And who said for sure it was a non-functional training chute. Not Emrick I guess? And not FBI and not Cooper.

Sheridan Peterson..

"EU" has advanced this in another thread..

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(BTW: It can't be Peterson because it was Hahneman)