Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1819927 times)

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #300 on: October 26, 2014, 09:45:42 PM »
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are we sure Tina made the statement of all black? look at my post above, and then read the notes, and then ending with the descriptions Tina & Flo gave. there descriptions can be found in the gallery under "evidence" the first photo.

Is the descriptions from Alice anywhere to be found?

Tina and Flo's description of Cooper according to Sluggo's website: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Descriptions of Cooper:

Mucklow
"W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see."

Schaffner
"W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #301 on: October 26, 2014, 10:03:11 PM »
Correct, as you can see it's Flo who claims he was all in black. that's why I think the notes are in reference to Flo's description, and not Tina?
 

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #302 on: October 26, 2014, 10:09:31 PM »
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Correct, as you can see it's Flo who claims he was all in black. that's why I think the notes are in reference to Flo's description, and not Tina?

Yep...That is why I posted the descriptions.
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #303 on: October 26, 2014, 11:58:39 PM »
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are we sure Tina made the statement of all black? look at my post above, and then read the notes, and then ending with the descriptions Tina & Flo gave. there descriptions can be found in the gallery under "evidence" the first photo.

Is the descriptions from Alice anywhere to be found?


Tina and Flo's description of Cooper according to Sluggo's website: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Descriptions of Cooper:

Mucklow
"W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see."

Schaffner
"W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."

'appeared to be of Latin descent' ... interesting. There's that possible Cuba connection again ???
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 11:59:37 PM by georger »
 

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #304 on: October 27, 2014, 11:22:30 PM »
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This is directly from Gray's website....

Over the years, there have been many D.B. Cooper sketches. There’s the Bing Crosby sketch, released shortly after the hijacking; the one that followed that; the aged depiction of Cooper; all are different in their own ways, have merit in their own ways, and were based on the recollection of three witnesses: Stewardesses Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, and Alice Hancock, who worked in first class.

One witness, however, that was not interviewed by Bureau artists was Robert Gregory, owner of a paint company in Seattle, who sat directly across from the hijacker in row 18. While stewardesses Mucklow and Schaffner were closest to the hijacker and Mucklow spent the longest time with him, Gregory was the most detailed and specific in his observations, according to the Bureau case files.

For instance, Gregory noticed the sunglasses the hijacker was wearing had “horned-rims” and the suit jacket the hijacker was wearing had “wide lapels.” Working with paints, Gregory was likely an expert in picking out colors. According to the Cooper case files, Gregory believed the hijacker’s suit was not black or brown as had been suggested, but was a different shade entirely: “russet.”

Most critically, Gregory described the hijacker’s hair in a very specific way: “Marcelled,” an old French style of creating curls with hot irons. The observation of “marcelled” hair is critical in the case because stewardesses’ Mucklow and Schaffner described the hijacker’s hair as straight. There was one witness though who did back up Gregory’s claim of curly hair: Alice Hancock, the first class stew, who described the hijacker’s hair as “wavy.”

Attached is a new sketch of the hijacker, the “Gregory” sketch, designed as a supplement to the other Cooper sketches out there, and composed by the talented illustrator John Burgoyne. To read more about the sketch and recent Cooper news,

Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.
I attached a Word Document with part of our email exchange.

What I found interesting is his comments about his memories of the likeliness of the hijacker compared to the FBI composite sketch. He thought the sketch portrayed the hijacker's face too thin.

Concerning my father:
He found that my fathers facial features were more consistent to what he remembers.
He had hesitations about the size of my father in the video from 1970 (the lake shot) and thought Mel was too big, but
according to Unsolved Mysteries episode, my father was 6' and 180 lbs at the time of his disappearance on September 15. 1971.

What interests me is Mitchell's 'sense' of sizing Cooper up - Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

You might ask Mitchell what specifically made him think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker. If it was a physical comparison or an overall general appraisal of the hijacker including his age, compared to the younger Mitchell himself. Ask Mitchell if he was a wrestler or in athletics as a college student, or had been in high school, or if Mitchell was going through any military training like ROTC in college etc? What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?
 


I emailed Bill Mitchell and asked him your questions above in bold. Here is his response:

When asked directly by the FBI if I thought I could have  “done” something to the hijacker if I would have known the situation. (bomb, etc etc)  I told them I thought I could have (but I said I never would have tried).  Anyway in 1971 I was 6’2” and probably 195 lbs.  I played football, basketball and track in high school.  Probably would have played football in college except for an injury.  So yes I thought I could have overpowered him.  I was in the middle seat on the left and Tina was in the aisle seat on the right with D.B. in the middle and there was a brief case in the window seat that I remember and he had his hand in and out of the brief case.  I thought I could have timed it so when his hand was out of the brief case (i.e lighting up another cigarette) I could have jumped him and either jerked him out or overpowered him.

and he continues with:

One other point that could play a part in my thoughts about over powering him..  As I told Richard Tosaw in his book “D.B. Cooper Dead or Alive”, I was a 20 year old college sophomore and I really couldn’t understand why this Flight Attendant was paying so much attention to this older guy with a white shirt and clip on tie!  So there could a little bit of ego involved!!!
 
Hope this helps

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #305 on: October 27, 2014, 11:33:36 PM »
Quote
So there could a little bit of ego involved!!!

I believe my response was "young & cocky"  8)
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #306 on: October 27, 2014, 11:44:49 PM »
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This is directly from Gray's website....

Over the years, there have been many D.B. Cooper sketches. There’s the Bing Crosby sketch, released shortly after the hijacking; the one that followed that; the aged depiction of Cooper; all are different in their own ways, have merit in their own ways, and were based on the recollection of three witnesses: Stewardesses Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, and Alice Hancock, who worked in first class.

One witness, however, that was not interviewed by Bureau artists was Robert Gregory, owner of a paint company in Seattle, who sat directly across from the hijacker in row 18. While stewardesses Mucklow and Schaffner were closest to the hijacker and Mucklow spent the longest time with him, Gregory was the most detailed and specific in his observations, according to the Bureau case files.

For instance, Gregory noticed the sunglasses the hijacker was wearing had “horned-rims” and the suit jacket the hijacker was wearing had “wide lapels.” Working with paints, Gregory was likely an expert in picking out colors. According to the Cooper case files, Gregory believed the hijacker’s suit was not black or brown as had been suggested, but was a different shade entirely: “russet.”

Most critically, Gregory described the hijacker’s hair in a very specific way: “Marcelled,” an old French style of creating curls with hot irons. The observation of “marcelled” hair is critical in the case because stewardesses’ Mucklow and Schaffner described the hijacker’s hair as straight. There was one witness though who did back up Gregory’s claim of curly hair: Alice Hancock, the first class stew, who described the hijacker’s hair as “wavy.”

Attached is a new sketch of the hijacker, the “Gregory” sketch, designed as a supplement to the other Cooper sketches out there, and composed by the talented illustrator John Burgoyne. To read more about the sketch and recent Cooper news,

Well...I did it. I contacted William Mitchell. I sent a letter USPS on October 3, 2014. He sent me an email on October 8, 2014 as a response to my letter.
I attached a Word Document with part of our email exchange.

What I found interesting is his comments about his memories of the likeliness of the hijacker compared to the FBI composite sketch. He thought the sketch portrayed the hijacker's face too thin.

Concerning my father:
He found that my fathers facial features were more consistent to what he remembers.
He had hesitations about the size of my father in the video from 1970 (the lake shot) and thought Mel was too big, but
according to Unsolved Mysteries episode, my father was 6' and 180 lbs at the time of his disappearance on September 15. 1971.

What interests me is Mitchell's 'sense' of sizing Cooper up - Mitchell says: 'In 1971 I was 6'2" and probably weighed 195 lbs. and in pretty good shape.' Mitchell was a young vigorous male/college student. Mitchell says after learning what was really going on with Cooper he thought: 'I could have overpowered him'. Key word is "overpowered" him. That puts Cooper as slighter in build, or maybe less physically dominant in presence and demeanor in Mitchell's assessment, especially if Mitchell and Cooper were similar in height. That's an interesting judgment if Mitchell wasn't just boasting as an after-thought?

You might ask Mitchell what specifically made him think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker. If it was a physical comparison or an overall general appraisal of the hijacker including his age, compared to the younger Mitchell himself. Ask Mitchell if he was a wrestler or in athletics as a college student, or had been in high school, or if Mitchell was going through any military training like ROTC in college etc? What made Mitchell think he could have "overpowered" the hijacker ?
 


I emailed Bill Mitchell and asked him your questions above in bold. Here is his response:

When asked directly by the FBI if I thought I could have  “done” something to the hijacker if I would have known the situation. (bomb, etc etc)  I told them I thought I could have (but I said I never would have tried).  Anyway in 1971 I was 6’2” and probably 195 lbs.  I played football, basketball and track in high school.  Probably would have played football in college except for an injury.  So yes I thought I could have overpowered him.  I was in the middle seat on the left and Tina was in the aisle seat on the right with D.B. in the middle and there was a brief case in the window seat that I remember and he had his hand in and out of the brief case.  I thought I could have timed it so when his hand was out of the brief case (i.e lighting up another cigarette) I could have jumped him and either jerked him out or overpowered him.

and he continues with:

One other point that could play a part in my thoughts about over powering him..  As I told Richard Tosaw in his book “D.B. Cooper Dead or Alive”, I was a 20 year old college sophomore and I really couldn’t understand why this Flight Attendant was paying so much attention to this older guy with a white shirt and clip on tie!  So there could a little bit of ego involved!!!
 
Hope this helps


Thanks Vicki .

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #307 on: November 21, 2014, 12:06:45 AM »
Russet-colored suit, marcelled hair, Geoffrey Gray and Robert Gregory:

I think a bit more thought needs to go into assessing the primary source of the russet suit and marcelled hair bit. Specifically, who is Robert Gregory and what did he actually see?

Robert Gregory is deceased, but his nephew came to the 2013 Symposium in Tacoma. He said "Uncle Bob" loved to talk about the skyjacking and told lots of stories. However, I asked the nephew if Uncle Bob ever told the family where he was sitting on 305, and the guy said "Not to my knowledge."

As far as I know, Robert Gregory was sitting in the forward part of the aircraft and never was close to DB Cooper. Yes, he would have walked passed Cooper while entering the plane since all the passengers came up the stairway and then sat in open sitting.  Bill Mitchell said he came on early and DB Cooper was an early arrival as well, and took the seat nearest the stairs - Row 18.

But Gregory sat further forward in the early stages of the flight, and certainly was far forward of Cooper when the FA had everyone move up. Hence, Gregory's view of DB Cooper was modest, at best. Also, the widespread feeling was that no one knew they were being hijacked, so there was no particular reason to memorize the appearances of the other passengers.

It is my further understanding that Robert Gregory was not one of the five passengers who talked with the FBI immediately after deplaning in Seattle when the Bureau asked for volunteers to tell them who had a good look at the guy in Row 18. I forget who told me who the five were (Farflung?), but Bill Mitchell was one and I think Labissoniere was another.

As a result, Robert Gregory and his memories are late to the party.

Also, Gregory's additional comments are askew. Gregory says Cooper was 5'8" and mid-30s. No one else describes as such, and Gregory must be consider an outlier, even if he is correct.

Regarding Geoffrey Gray, he is certainly a big fan of Robert Gregory.  The compelling question is why.

One reason may be that GG found a tasty tidbit in the FBI's files about Gregory's claims, except that the agent doing the documenting mixed-up Robert Gregory with Bill Mitchell, and had Gregory sitting in Row 18, seat B.

Why GG didn't see this glaring discrepancy is up for discussion, but I find it very troubling. Particularly since GG is running so hard with the Robert Gregory scenarios, especially the marcelled hair and russet-colored suit.

It's goofs like this that lead me to wonder if GG is be part of the FBI's Norjak obfuscation campaign.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 12:33:13 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #308 on: November 21, 2014, 12:48:33 AM »
I believe that either Himmelsbach or Tosaw wrote in their book that Cooper was the last, or next to last, person to board the aircraft.  And in the waiting room, Cooper reportedly stood off by himself and didn't mix with the other passengers.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #309 on: November 21, 2014, 02:23:26 AM »
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I believe that either Himmelsbach or Tosaw wrote in their book that Cooper was the last, or next to last, person to board the aircraft.  And in the waiting room, Cooper reportedly stood off by himself and didn't mix with the other passengers.

That's what I thought too!  So, if Cooper is the last or near the last, and Gregory is among the first, how does Gregory pass Cooper who is still at the end of the line and goes into the rear lavatory before taking his seat, boarding?   ::)  Will Cirque du Soleil do it! ?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #310 on: November 21, 2014, 03:01:17 AM »
Yup, I remember reading that DBC stood off by himself and was one of the last to board.  But Mitchell told the WHSM something a little different, again as I recall off the top of my head.

Bottom line: Uncle Bob ain't too credible.

That said, I'm sure he was a great storyteller!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 03:02:09 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline sailshaw

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #311 on: November 22, 2014, 11:10:04 AM »
Bruce Smith  Something to think about!

The Four Letters sent to the newspapers following Norjak should be discussed more as I think the FBI are disregarding these letters as not from DB Cooper which is a conclusion that fits the FBI conclusion that DB died in the jump and could not have written the Four Letters.

I just want to say that the letters make a lot of sense to me that they are from DB Cooper and they show that DB survived the jump. If the letters were a hoax as the FBI must believe, there would not have been four sent from four different locations but probably just one letter. Also, the third letter had the salutation  "The System That Beat The System" which was the mantra used by Sheridan Peterson during the month he lived at my home. That salutation proved to me it really was Sheridan and that he survived the jump. Those letters were no hoax and the places that they were sent from fit the places that Sheridan would have visited.

Just a thought of why the FBI did not obtain the DNA from under the stamps and envelope flaps of the four letters. What a shame for the "Smoking Gun" evidence to go not looked at for all these years. I would have thought the FBI to be smarter that that.

Bob Sailshaw
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #312 on: November 22, 2014, 11:33:44 AM »
How much can one actually change the description of Cooper? Agent Larry Carr made a comment about trying to change the height of Cooper.

"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways."

"Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

"There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case. Mucklow spent almost five hours with Cooper, I think she could have got the base physical indentifiers correct, especially when the others reported almost the same."

Mucklow "W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewerly she could see."

Schaffner "W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black.

I'm looking for Carr's comment about descriptions. I'll post it as soon as I find it.





« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 12:32:45 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #313 on: November 22, 2014, 12:33:45 PM »
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How much can one actually change the description of Cooper? Agent Larry Carr made a comment about trying to change the height of Cooper.

"No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have
it both ways."

"Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

"There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case. Mucklow spent almost five hours with Cooper, I think she could have got the base physical indentifiers correct, especially when the others reported almost the same."

Mucklow "W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewerly she could see."

Schaffner "W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black.

I'm looking for Carr's comment about descriptions. I'll post it as soon as I find it.

'Questioning the description' has become a cult-religion over at Dropzone. The Whiplash Twins are in full charge of Dropzone. And this is no Moderate thing, but extremist at its core. Let's be clear about this! Theirs is no polite discussion with manners about descriptions or anything else. "Descriptions" is just one phase of the attack against reality. This is a subversive plot to undermine the very foundations of reality. Sangiro and Messo and Quade have given these cultists the power to actually perma-ban people if they don't cooperate in this agenda! There are numerous examples of that including SA Larry Carr! They could now require that Cooper had a cat, if they wanted to. And people on these forums would produce pages on that too ! The whole thing has become an insidious cottage illness with no other purpose than to pay homage to the personal attacks being dispensed by the Whiplash Twins. It's one thing to talk about descriptions, it's another thing to continue to talk about it for years as if Cooper really did carry a cat on board which sat in his lap and went out the door with him at 5' 8"  !   :)     
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 12:39:59 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #314 on: November 22, 2014, 12:47:41 PM »
Agreed, but this applies to all that try and maneuver around certain points in the official description. as Carr explained "you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect."

Descriptions can be wrong. I'm not doubting that, but this seems to be entirely different from common crimes where the witness didn't have long to identify the suspect. we can clearly see this in the reports from the passengers.

Basic guidelines must protect the description from disruption, or contamination that opens the door to hundreds more suspects now fitting the "new description" Carr quotes again much as I do "where does one draw the line"

I'm always game for exploring new suspects, but you drop the odds considerably if you breach the description of this suspect. that's how I view it. perhaps others don't.