Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1836564 times)

Robert99 · « **Reply #2595 on:** February 10, 2018, 04:55:26 PM »

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8:22 they report 23 DME from Portland..if you go by 3 miles a minute that sounds right..they pass over Battleground (according to the map) after the 8:13 mark.......8 x 3= 24?

According to the George Harrison papers, the airliner reported at 8:18 PM that it was 23 DME miles from the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC. As mentioned in a previous post, the 8:18 time undoubtedly is the time the crew reported that location over the ARINC phone patch. The 8:22 PM time is the time stamp on the ARINC teletypewriter which would be the time that the message had been typed into the system and the "send" button was pushed.

So if the airliner was over Battleground at 8:13, it would have to fly 23 DME miles in 5 minutes to be at the stated location at 8:18. The airliner would have to fly 4.6 DME (or nautical) miles per minute, which comes out as 276 Knots. That is about 100 knots faster than the airliner was actually flying.

The flight route shown on the so-called FBI map is simply not possible for the times shown.

georger · « **Reply #2596 on:** February 10, 2018, 11:52:00 PM »

QUESTIONS - Did Seattle Agents go to Reno? Did Seattle give Reno any instructions about searching the plane, preserving evidence from the plane, etc?

Anyone know? I dont believe this question has ever come up until several days ago. ?

What was the working relationship between Seattle and Reno after 305 landed at Seattle?

Did police at either location play any role in searching the plane or handling evidence from the plane?

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #2597 on:** February 11, 2018, 12:39:40 AM »

I've thought about Reno as well. Here is what I know:

1. FBI agents came from two locations: The Satellite Office in Reno provided two agents, (I believe it was two).
2. Red Campbell and three other agents came from Las Vegas. They arrived by plane a few minutes before 305 touched down. Red was in overall charge. He was also the SAC in LV. Red and one LV agent, plus the two Reno agents conducted the on-board retrieval. The third LV agent handled comms in the terminal.
3. All evidence retrieved went to LV. The tie went to Seattle on Monday. Cigarette butts apparently stayed in LV for decades until processing in 2002-3?
4. Red conducted the debriefing with the crew - Bill, Scotty, Andy and Tina.

Somebody posted recently that FBI agents were in squad cars along the runway. I had never heard that before.

All this information comes from Calame, his book, and related interviews and reading: O'Hara, Detlor, Himms, Carr, Dormuth. Geoffrey Gray as well. Most of this came in snippets - a tidbit here, a tidbit there.

I know of no local LE involved at Sea-Tac other than security in the terminal. One FBI agent at Sail's luncheon at the SYC, Sid Ruben, told us that the entire Seattle office was deployed at Sea-Tac, about 30 agents. They handled all issues including perimeter security and the latter debriefing, and at least one agent was on the runway with the plane - "John" who purportedly boarded the plane for a short period of time. At least one agent rode on the bus wit the passengers. I'm not sure how many agents were deployed on comms. J. Earl Milne was in charge at Sea-Tac. Charlie Farrell, the Norjak case agent, apparently stayed in the Seattle office that night.

I've never heard anything on the relationship between Seattle and Las Vegas. I've heard that there was tension between Seattle and Portland, especially regarding Himms, and this comes from Galen. There was also heightened tensions within the Portland Division, and Dorwin Schreuder left the FBI a year after the money find, according to his grandson's book.

The role of local LE at Reno is murky. Calame's book certainly describes it as being sloppy and chaotic, with Reno PD handling the fingerprint retrieval. But that reality is challenged by numerous official FBI accounts. Local PD must have brought the dogs on board - I believe there were two - and they were busy eating the crew's food, according to Bill Rataczak.

georger · « **Reply #2598 on:** February 11, 2018, 12:56:34 AM »

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I've thought about Reno as well. Here is what I know:

1. FBI agents came from two locations: The Satellite Office in Reno provided two agents, (I believe it was two).
2. Red Campbell and three other agents came from Las Vegas. They arrived by plane a few minutes before 305 touched down. Red was in overall charge. He was also the SAC in LV. Red and one LV agent, plus the two Reno agents conducted the on-board retrieval. The third LV agent handled comms in the terminal.
3. All evidence retrieved went to LV. The tie went to Seattle on Monday. Cigarette butts apparently stayed in LV for decades until processing in 2002-3?
4. Red conducted the debriefing with the crew - Bill, Scotty, Andy and Tina.

Somebody posted recently that FBI agents were in squad cars along the runway. I had never heard that before.

All this information comes from Calame, his book, and related interviews and reading: O'Hara, Detlor, Himms, Carr, Dormuth. Geoffrey Gray as well. Most of this came in snippets - a tidbit here, a tidbit there.

I know of no local LE involved at Sea-Tac other than security in the terminal. One FBI agent at Sail's luncheon at the SYC, Sid Ruben, told us that the entire Seattle office was deployed at Sea-Tac, about 30 agents. They handled all issues including perimeter security and the latter debriefing, and at least one agent was on the runway with the plane - "John" who purportedly boarded the plane for a short period of time. At least one agent rode on the bus wit the passengers. I'm not sure how many agents were deployed on comms. J. Earl Milne was in charge at Sea-Tac. Charlie Farrell, the Norjak case agent, apparently stayed in the Seattle office that night.

I've never heard anything on the relationship between Seattle and Las Vegas. I've heard that there was tension between Seattle and Portland, especially regarding Himms, and this comes from Galen. There was also heightened tensions within the Portland Division, and Dorwin Schreuder left the FBI a year after the money find, according to his grandson's book.

The role of local LE at Reno is murky. Calame's book certainly describes it as being sloppy and chaotic, with Reno PD handling the fingerprint retrieval. But that reality is challenged by numerous official FBI accounts. Local PD must have brought the dogs on board - I believe there were two - and they were busy eating the crew's food, according to Bill Rataczak.

ok - I posted the bit about "Police said FBI agents got into each of four cars containing K-9 police dogs. They lined the runway when the airliner landed, but no sign of the hijacker was found. " Its from my post a few back. Excerpt from Reno Evening Gazette, November 25, 1971: got it at DZ.

Anything going to Lab analysis would have gone to Wash DC by somebody.

I was talking to Geoff years ago about the search at Reno when he began to state exactly what he had - I was shocked! Geoff had talked to Campbell. I dont think its an exaggeration to say Geoff said 'the plane was trashed. Dogs jumped the food containers and ate and spread food all around.... ' you have always said the tie was gathered a day or days later? (a mystery to you) ...... in a word this is a void' still waiting for development. This is why I was so interested in MEYDC's posts. He seemed to know something about it?

I dont know what else to say, frankly. And there is virtually nothing about the search at DZ that I can find.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #2599 on:** February 11, 2018, 01:02:14 AM »

I don't believe I ever said or wrote that the tie was discovered a few days after the hijacking. Here is what I know, what I've read, and what I have written:

1. Calame wrote that no one on the retrieval team remembers seeing the tie OR retrieving it - not Red Campbell, Stousland, et. al. Also Tina told the FBI debriefing team that she didn't see the tie - and later told Calame in their 1990 interview that she had no memory of the tie at all.

2. The tie was sent to Seattle by FBI dispatch services from LV, and received in Seattle on Monday, November 29. Where the tie had been since Wednesday night has never been identified, according to my knowledge - nor who found it. It is widely presumed that Red Campbell found it since he was on-board before his team, put it in his pocket for a "tell," and never told his agents about it so that he had total secrecy about it. Then, when Calame interviewed him in the 1980s he lied to protect his ass - and this is the prevailing rumor about the tie and Calame's writing.

georger · « **Reply #2600 on:** February 11, 2018, 01:07:29 AM »

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I don't believe I ever said or wrote that the tie was discovered a few days after the hijacking. Here is what I know, what I've read, and what I have written:

1. Calame wrote that no one on the retrieval team remembers seeing the tie OR retrieving it - not Red Campbell, Stousland, et. al. Also Tina told the FBI debriefing team that she didn't see the tie - and later told Calame in their 1990 interview that she had no memory of the tie at all.

2. The tie was sent to Seattle by FBI dispatch services from LV, and received in Seattle on Monday, November 29. Where the tie was since Wednesday night has never been identified, according to my knowledge.

OK this is how I remember you saying it just as yours above - basically the tie pops up out of nowhere without significant others seeing it. The implication making it open to doubt .... perhaps a plant? Not Cooper's tie? Who knows but ripe for a conspiracy theory.

I still think (but cannot prove) that an original report has the tie being found almost by accident, slipped down between two seats, escaped first or even second notice, ...... and again I cannot prove this but that may have come from Geoff also? So take that with a huge grain of salt!!!

I will say this but it's too bad there arent a few Campbell interviews around to consult. Maybe something will surface in Colbert files yet to be released?

Shutter · « **Reply #2601 on:** February 11, 2018, 08:36:19 AM »

They boarded the plane at 11:25 pm...

"Upon boarding this aircraft, it was determined that the rear row of seats on this plane were numbered 18, and the right window seat was designated 18F. on the seat numbered 18E a black clip-on tie was observed. this black tie contained a tie clasp, yellow gold in color with a white pearl circular stone in the center."

doesn't sound like it was found after being on the plane for some time.....

Shutter · « **Reply #2602 on:** February 11, 2018, 09:24:39 AM »

I made an overhead view of the crime scene...don't know if anything of value can be gained, but here it is....

georger · « **Reply #2603 on:** February 11, 2018, 12:00:25 PM »

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They boarded the plane at 11:25 pm...

"Upon boarding this aircraft, it was determined that the rear row of seats on this plane were numbered 18, and the right window seat was designated 18F. on the seat numbered 18E a black clip-on tie was observed. this black tie contained a tie clasp, yellow gold in color with a white pearl circular stone in the center."

doesn't sound like it was found after being on the plane for some time.....

This is an example of how original testimony erodes over time as people attack and change it.

Lynn · « **Reply #2604 on:** February 11, 2018, 03:41:06 PM »

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They boarded the plane at 11:25 pm...

"Upon boarding this aircraft, it was determined that the rear row of seats on this plane were numbered 18, and the right window seat was designated 18F. on the seat numbered 18E a black clip-on tie was observed. this black tie contained a tie clasp, yellow gold in color with a white pearl circular stone in the center."

doesn't sound like it was found after being on the plane for some time.....

This is an example of how original testimony erodes over time as people attack and change it.

To expand on Shutter's quote from the FBI files:
Upon boarding this aircraft, it was determined that the rear of seats on this airplane were numbered 18, and the right window seat was designated 18F. On the seat numbered 18E a black clip-on tie was observed. This black tie contained a tie clasp, yellow gold in color with a white pearl circular stone in the center. The label on this tie indicated it to be a "Towncraft" tie and bore the store name of Penneys Number 3. It further bore a label showing it to be a "Snapper" patent type tie. On the floor directly in front of seat number 18D, the exterior canvas cover for a chest type parachute was observed along with the handle utilized for releasing this parachute. The label on this canvas covering indicated it to be Pack Part number 451187GB and indicated the date of manufacture to have been October, (year illegible). The flap on this canvas exterior contained a sewn on white label with the notation SSS # 5 and COSS. This flap had also been stenciled with the name JOHNSON.
An opened parachute which apparently had been removed from the canvas parachute cover described above was found spread out over seats 17C and 17B. This parachute was of a pink-orange color.
On seat 18B, an unopened back type parachute was observed. A card in the pocket of this parachute reflected it to be a Conacol type parachute, number 60-9707 and made by the Pioneer Parachute Company. This card indicated it was last inspected on May 21, 1971.

SAs on doc: Francis J. Schmidt, Marvin T. Bell, Harold E. Newpher, Norman M. Stone.

Quick question, gang - does anyone know what the serial numbers were on the parachutes NOT found aboard? (Just on the off-chance one of them was 717171684*

)

Shutter · « **Reply #2605 on:** February 11, 2018, 03:42:15 PM »

I believe right where you were looking has them...pretty sure...

Lynn · « **Reply #2606 on:** February 11, 2018, 03:43:48 PM »

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I believe right where you were looking has them...pretty sure...

Prediction: In my dotage, my scrolling finger will be a hook. Thanks!

Shutter · « **Reply #2607 on:** February 11, 2018, 03:51:34 PM »

actually it doesn't list them all...what I find odd is that they list three chutes? I have brought this up before but nobody answered,, it's on page 52

Lynn · « **Reply #2608 on:** February 11, 2018, 03:52:33 PM »

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actually it doesn't list them all...what I find odd is that they list three chutes? I have brought this up before but nobody answered,, it's on page 52

A second before you posted this, I was about to post this:

Okay, I'm missing something. The parachutes described are only the ones found on board. Another is mentioned, with Cossey's phone number. Not finding anything more on that chute or the other chute. I'm just reading the selected version of the FBI files, though, not the full files.

Shutter · « **Reply #2609 on:** February 11, 2018, 04:09:57 PM »

Hayden is mentioned with his chutes..page 67

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1836564 times)

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Lynn

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Lynn

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Lynn

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case