Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1834975 times)

Unsurelock · « **Reply #2340 on:** November 09, 2017, 01:37:28 AM »

Okay, so...exploring the conventional area of the case where Cossey's story has little or no impact on things...

377, how much more confident are you in a C9 than some of the other chutes available?

MeyerLouie · « **Reply #2341 on:** November 09, 2017, 04:40:55 AM »

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"I was about to ask Coss to tell me who the Boeing Field-SEATAC driver was when he slammed down the phone."

That happens a lot with you, Bruce, doesn't it?

Yes, it does.

My understanding is that this behavior occurs because I am asking troubling questions, or making statements that make people uncomfortable.

Remember, truth is the first casualty of war. That was true back in the glory days of Athens, and it is no less true today.

Or you just might be in total denial and your bedside manner and approach with people is just plain annoying, rude, and caustic.....
Meyer

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #2342 on:** November 09, 2017, 10:25:39 PM »

Denial? Hmmm, unlikely. But my bedside manner may be annoying.

MeyerLouie · « **Reply #2343 on:** November 10, 2017, 01:19:10 AM »

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Denial? Hmmm, unlikely. But my bedside manner may be annoying.

I think that was my main point -- people don't like talking to you because of your annoying, disrespectful manner with them. Isn't that attitude pretty much a death warrant for journalists who want to get the inside scoop and have dependable, on-going sources of information? Respect is earned, plain and simple. I thought you guys learned that in journalism school. Oh wait, I forgot, you didn't go to journalism school.

Meyer

Unsurelock · « **Reply #2344 on:** November 10, 2017, 10:09:12 AM »

Just watched an interesting demonstration about witness identification, conducted on a morning show by a former Secret Service agent. They staged an altercation with actors and then polled the audience a few minutes later on what the perpetrator looked like. They gave them three questions, multiple choice.

Hair color:
A) Dark Brown
B) Light Brown
C) Black
D) Dirty Blonde

Less than half got the right answer, which was Dark Brown.

Age:
A) 29
B) 36
C) 42
D) 51

Only 4% got the right answer (42), with close to half guessing 29, a difference of over a decade, though obviously these are leading questions.

When asked if the perpetrator was wearing glasses, 91% answered correctly that he was not. However, the victim was wearing glasses, which led the SS agent to explain something called "transposing," where a witness takes a characteristic of one person and falsely attributes it to another. If 8% of witnesses said he was wearing glasses, (one in 12ish), then it's not uncommon. (What color were the Stew's uniforms on flight 305? Maroon? Dark red? Is that close to "russet" color? Just a thought.)

Happy Friday.

Shutter · « **Reply #2345 on:** November 10, 2017, 05:20:40 PM »

Many have been saying this for years..the passengers description is different due to them not having a reason to recall him so the description is going to be off. going by any descriptions from the past through police polls, or what descriptions were right type of an average don't really work here. the typical crime will last seconds, not hours. the main witness spent over 5 hours with Cooper.

It's like me asking you 10 minutes later who was at the gas station you pulled out of 10 minutes ago..

377 · « **Reply #2346 on:** November 10, 2017, 06:33:06 PM »

Shutter has a good point about length of time with the suspect, but there are cases of hostages who spent a few hours with a suspect and get basic things wrong, like eye color. I had a case where that happened. Unfortunately for my client, he had left fingerprints at the scene. If it had just been a victim making an ID of the accused, it might not have stood up due to big errors in description. Trauma and fear can distort memories. Rape victims are physically close to their attackers and usually get a good long look, but often get the descriptions wrong.

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377

Shutter · « **Reply #2347 on:** November 10, 2017, 06:35:47 PM »

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Shutter has a good point about length of time with the suspect, but there are cases of hostages who spent a few hours with a suspect and get basic things wrong, like eye color. I had a case where that happened. Unfortunately for my client, he had left fingerprints at the scene. If it had just been a victim making an ID of the accused, it might not have stood up due to big errors in description. Trauma and fear can distort memories. Rape victims are physically close to their attackers and usually get a good long look, but often get the descriptions wrong.

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377

I think that's still a bit different. that's a very personal crime. plus, you don't have anyone else with this person during the crime. here, we have multiple people who knew what he was there for and the descriptions were close. the sketch is another story..

Rape victims can't really be used as reference here. it's a very different "violent " crime. this brings panic and distortion to very high levels. nobody was assaulted during the hijacking. shoplifter vs home invasion..two different crimes with violence in one and not the other.

Shutter · « **Reply #2348 on:** November 10, 2017, 06:38:38 PM »

Tina stood right next to Cooper, so trying to imply he was shorter than 5' 8", or the same height is not going to be accurate since Tina herself is 5' 8"..

Agent Carr...
The physical description I provided is a reported fact. No matter how much you would like to change it you simply can't throw it out and replace it with theoretical fact so it fits your suspect. If you do, your investigation is doomed to fail.

No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways.

Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect.

I'm sure the crew was scared, but I believe they were not in a panic state, or enough to cloud any judgement.

Unsurelock · « **Reply #2349 on:** November 10, 2017, 09:57:59 PM »

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Tina stood right next to Cooper, so trying to imply he was shorter than 5' 8", or the same height is not going to be accurate since Tina herself is 5' 8"..

Agent Carr...
The physical description I provided is a reported fact. No matter how much you would like to change it you simply can't throw it out and replace it with theoretical fact so it fits your suspect. If you do, your investigation is doomed to fail.

No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways.

Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect.

I'm sure the crew was scared, but I believe they were not in a panic state, or enough to cloud any judgement.

I trust the combined descriptions of the stewardesses. They were almost identical, and give a good range to go from. This is not to knock Geoff Gray, but he seems to put a lot of weight on Mitchell's description of a russet colored suit and marcelled hair. I mean he had to translate it in an interview. I am much older than Bill Mitchell was in 1971, and I have never heard of marcelled hair or the color russet, and I have pictures of my grandmother wearing both at the same time in the 30's. Nowadays you'd have to be a trained and experienced art director to know those two adjectives. Did people really talk like that in 1971?

Now if you'll excuse me I have to put on my mauve pajamas and conk my hair.

Shutter · « **Reply #2350 on:** November 10, 2017, 10:17:45 PM »

Mitchell didn't give the description you mention. it was another passenger..

Unsurelock · « **Reply #2351 on:** November 10, 2017, 10:31:47 PM »

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Mitchell didn't give the description you mention. it was another passenger..

Ah. Robert Gregory.

Forgive me. I think I'm showing signs of Cooper Fatigue. Too much absorbed too quickly empties out the ears.

Shutter · « **Reply #2352 on:** November 10, 2017, 10:34:26 PM »

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Mitchell didn't give the description you mention. it was another passenger..

Ah. Robert Gregory.

Forgive me. I think I'm showing signs of Cooper Fatigue. Too much absorbed too quickly empties out the ears.

Gregory worked for a paint company, so I guess that's why he gave the color he did...

Shutter · « **Reply #2353 on:** November 10, 2017, 10:41:24 PM »

Gregory didn't appear to be too observant..he never saw the chutes, or mentioned anything about what Cooper had. he also gave a description of height without seeing him standing....

georger · « **Reply #2354 on:** November 10, 2017, 11:29:16 PM »

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Gregory didn't appear to be too observant..he never saw the chutes, or mentioned anything about what Cooper had. he also gave a description of height without seeing him standing....

russet is a long way from black or dark brown (suit coat). the marcelled hair may be matched by a few people saying 'wavy hair' combed back. I think one of the stews described it that way which may be a close cousin of marcelled. Gregory himself says his main focus was on the stews giving the old man so much attention. He did mention the briefcase and Cooper's hand inside the briefcase, a lot? But he definitely was focused on the stews and what they were doing ... with an old man (vs a young college stud, himself!)? Gregory is almost describing a competitive situation he constructed in his mind siting directly across from (the old man) ?

'Latin appearance' was still being stated in FBI descriptions clear into 1972 and beyond. The FBI docs make that apparent.

Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1834975 times)

Unsurelock

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

MeyerLouie

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

MeyerLouie

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Unsurelock

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

377

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Unsurelock

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Unsurelock

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case