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Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

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6 (9.4%)
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4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
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100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1834944 times)

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2325 on: November 08, 2017, 01:27:31 AM »
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R99 wrote: "Further, Cossey would not necessarily ever meet Hayden even though he packed his parachutes.  Hayden could drop them off at Sky Sports or where ever and Cossey could then pack them at his convenience and Hayden could pick them up at his convenience."

True, and I witnessed this activity a couple of weeks ago when I jumped. A group of acro pilots (like Norman) dropped off their rigs for repacks at the Byron CA DZ and had no interaction with the rigger at all. Skydivers, however, interact extensively with their riggers.  They want to know WHO is working on their gear. There are good riggers (careful, meticulous) and some who aren't so good.

377

According to the files and WSHM Cossey had no direct involvement with any of these others. See attached.

Its clear from the FBI files the FBI didn't originally know who Cossey was. They only found out later Cossey had packed the chutes and had personal knowledge of them. The FBI learned that from a reporter. The FBI then sent agents to find Cossey to establish contact ...

If B.S. thinks there is more, actual crimes, he needs to contact the Justice Dept or Wash State Attorney etc. I have a feeling B.S.'s allegations are already known to them. B.S. has now entered the big leagues.

Let me propose a scenario which involves a total of two back parachutes and two chest packs.

1.  George Harrison, NWA Station Chief at SEATAC, discovered that he needed two back pack parachutes and two chest pack parachutes.  Harrison got in touch with Barry Halstead, at "Pacific Aviation at Boeing Field", this is NOT SEATAC.  Harrison states that two back chutes were obtained through Halstead. 

2.  Either Halstead or someone at Seattle Sky Sports knew that Norman Hayden had two emergency back chutes.  One of them got in touch with Hayden and explained the need.  Hayden states that he was furnishing them to NWA, which is true.  Hayden apparently had the parachutes at his home or shop.  Instead of delivering the chutes himself to whatever point he was directed to, Hayden called a taxi and had it deliver the chutes to "Boeing Flight Service, Seattle", again this is NOT SEATAC and is probably Boeing Field.

3.  There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.

4.  Lynn Emerick of Seattle Sky Sports indicates that the two chest packs were transported directly from Sky Sports to SEATAC by a Washington State Highway Patrolman.

This is about the best explanation of the events related to the parachutes.  The hijacking in Portland took place about 3:00PM and all the parachutes were at the NWA cargo office at SEATAC a few minutes after 5:00 PM.  So everyone had to do a lot of scrambling in those 2:00+ hours.  No receipts were given or written records kept.  Some of the facility names were probably not correctly known when the write-ups were done, maybe days after the fact.


'There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.'

Actually there may be - the Pederson (sp?) audio interview? Did he say they were delivered by ??? (two FBI guys?) to the NWA office "upstairs" and they brought them down to the Freight Office (where Pederson and his supervisor were waiting) ?

According to Pederson his supervisor then took the out to the plane along with the money. No mention of Al Lee and we questioned that ... isnt that correct?
 

I'll have to check that again, but at this moment I am under the impression that Al Lee was the only ground contact that Tina had.  That is, Al Lee gave Tina the four parachutes and the money bag and she hauled them aboard one at a time.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2326 on: November 08, 2017, 01:39:09 AM »
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A couple of things:

Sure, it's possible that Hayden never met Cossey when the latter folded the former's parachute. But I find that hard to believe given the small community nature of skydiving in 1971. But it is possible.

What kind of bills did Cossey carry? Don't know. Maybe G notes. But the general notion that I got from Coss' friend - that Cossey carried large sums of money regularly, and gambled daily - still holds.

Bruce,

Do you know the denomination of the largest bill in circulation today?  Think C-note.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2327 on: November 08, 2017, 01:58:59 AM »
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Let me propose a scenario which involves a total of two back parachutes and two chest packs.

1.  George Harrison, NWA Station Chief at SEATAC, discovered that he needed two back pack parachutes and two chest pack parachutes.  Harrison got in touch with Barry Halstead, at "Pacific Aviation at Boeing Field", this is NOT SEATAC.  Harrison states that two back chutes were obtained through Halstead. 

2.  Either Halstead or someone at Seattle Sky Sports knew that Norman Hayden had two emergency back chutes.  One of them got in touch with Hayden and explained the need.  Hayden states that he was furnishing them to NWA, which is true.  Hayden apparently had the parachutes at his home or shop.  Instead of delivering the chutes himself to whatever point he was directed to, Hayden called a taxi and had it deliver the chutes to "Boeing Flight Service, Seattle", again this is NOT SEATAC and is probably Boeing Field.

3.  There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.

4.  Lynn Emerick of Seattle Sky Sports indicates that the two chest packs were transported directly from Sky Sports to SEATAC by a Washington State Highway Patrolman.

This is about the best explanation of the events related to the parachutes.  The hijacking in Portland took place about 3:00PM and all the parachutes were at the NWA cargo office at SEATAC a few minutes after 5:00 PM.  So everyone had to do a lot of scrambling in those 2:00+ hours.  No receipts were given or written records kept.  Some of the facility names were probably not correctly known when the write-ups were done, maybe days after the fact.
 

My information directly refutes that scenario.

The George Harrison-Barry Halstad-Norman Hayden connection and line of communication is well-established. As I discussed at length in my book, Barry Halstad never heard of Boeing Flight Services (BFS). His quote to me was: "I've never heard of that place and I even worked for Boeing!"

Norman was equally unknowledgeable of what BFS was, where it might have been, and how it ever got into the parachute conversation.

As for Earl Cossey's statements that his back chutes were driven by private car from Boeing Field to SeaTac has never been clarified nor expanded upon. The driver has never been identified, nor the vehicle, as far as I know. But Coss was consistently adamant about sending his back chutes to Boeing Field and not SeaTac. I was about to ask Coss to tell me who the Boeing Field-SEATAC driver was when he slammed down the phone.

Also, the question of how BFS enters into the FBI records is unclear. I first heard of Boeing Flight Services when I read GG's summary report on the parachutes, which got this whole rigmarole going.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:03:23 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2328 on: November 08, 2017, 02:05:51 AM »
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A couple of things:

Sure, it's possible that Hayden never met Cossey when the latter folded the former's parachute. But I find that hard to believe given the small community nature of skydiving in 1971. But it is possible.

What kind of bills did Cossey carry? Don't know. Maybe G notes. But the general notion that I got from Coss' friend - that Cossey carried large sums of money regularly, and gambled daily - still holds.

Bruce,

Do you know the denomination of the largest bill in circulation today?  Think C-note.

That's what they tell me. But I have seen a documentary on G-Notes. Personally, I feel rich if I have a twenty.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2329 on: November 08, 2017, 02:08:00 AM »
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Let me propose a scenario which involves a total of two back parachutes and two chest packs.

1.  George Harrison, NWA Station Chief at SEATAC, discovered that he needed two back pack parachutes and two chest pack parachutes.  Harrison got in touch with Barry Halstead, at "Pacific Aviation at Boeing Field", this is NOT SEATAC.  Harrison states that two back chutes were obtained through Halstead. 

2.  Either Halstead or someone at Seattle Sky Sports knew that Norman Hayden had two emergency back chutes.  One of them got in touch with Hayden and explained the need.  Hayden states that he was furnishing them to NWA, which is true.  Hayden apparently had the parachutes at his home or shop.  Instead of delivering the chutes himself to whatever point he was directed to, Hayden called a taxi and had it deliver the chutes to "Boeing Flight Service, Seattle", again this is NOT SEATAC and is probably Boeing Field.

3.  There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.

4.  Lynn Emerick of Seattle Sky Sports indicates that the two chest packs were transported directly from Sky Sports to SEATAC by a Washington State Highway Patrolman.

This is about the best explanation of the events related to the parachutes.  The hijacking in Portland took place about 3:00PM and all the parachutes were at the NWA cargo office at SEATAC a few minutes after 5:00 PM.  So everyone had to do a lot of scrambling in those 2:00+ hours.  No receipts were given or written records kept.  Some of the facility names were probably not correctly known when the write-ups were done, maybe days after the fact.
 

My information directly refutes that scenario.

The George Harrison-Barry Halstad-Norman Hayden connection and line of communication is well-established. As I discussed at length in my book, Barry Halstad never heard of Boeing Flight Services (BFS). His quote to me was: "I've never heard of that place and I even worked for Boeing!"

Norman was equally unknowledgeable of what BFS was, where it might have been, and how it ever got into the parachute conversation.

As for Earl Cossey's statements that his back chutes were driven by private car from Boeing Field to SeaTac has never been clarified nor expanded upon. The driver has never been identified, nor the vehicle, as far as I know. But Coss was consistently adamant about sending his back chutes to Boeing Field and not SeaTac. I was about to ask Coss to tell me who the Boeing Field-SEATAC driver was when he slammed down the phone.

Also, the question of how BFS enters into the FBI records is unclear. I first heard of Boeing Flight Services when I read GG's summary report on the parachutes, which got this whole rigmarole going.

Has Halstead ever heard of "Pacific Aviation at Boeing Field" which is presumably where he worked given the above information.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2330 on: November 08, 2017, 02:10:51 AM »
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'There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.'

Actually there may be - the Pederson (sp?) audio interview? Did he say they were delivered by ??? (two FBI guys?) to the NWA office "upstairs" and they brought them down to the Freight Office (where Pederson and his supervisor were waiting) ?

According to Pederson his supervisor then took the out to the plane along with the money. No mention of Al Lee and we questioned that ... isnt that correct?
 

I'll have to check that again, but at this moment I am under the impression that Al Lee was the only ground contact that Tina had.  That is, Al Lee gave Tina the four parachutes and the money bag and she hauled them aboard one at a time.


Al Lee was the Ground Ops Chief for NWO and was out at the plane with the money and chutes. But he had company - the Homicide Detective from the Seattle PD. I forgethisname at the moment. {Edit: Owen McKenna, SPD, sourced to GG.}

We also have to consider where John "The G- Man" was, who was identified as boarding the plane by Larry Finegold, the US Assist DA for Seattle, who was sitting in Row 6 and knew John from the courts. According to multiple passengers - and Finegold - two of these men brought the money bag onboard and gave it to Tina in the forward section of the plane.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:15:43 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2331 on: November 08, 2017, 02:19:23 AM »
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Has Halstead ever heard of "Pacific Aviation at Boeing Field" which is presumably where he worked given the above information.


I'll make you a deal, Robert. If you read my book and still have questions, such the above, I will gladly answer them. Until then, I feel like I am a lonely windmill twisting in the wind.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:21:14 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2332 on: November 08, 2017, 12:32:20 PM »
Not exactly Georger. There are no chute licenses, only an FAA requirement that emergency chutes be FAA TSO compliant and that they be inspected and repacked at regular intervals mandated by FAA regs. These days the mandated repack cycle is 180 days. back in the NORJACK days I recall it was shorter, perhaps 90 days. You  don't have to repack during periods of non use, but if you get a ramp check from an FAA inspector and have carried a chute aloft that is out of date, it's a fairly serious violation. 

377
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2333 on: November 08, 2017, 01:16:26 PM »
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Not exactly Georger. There are no chute licenses, only an FAA requirement that emergency chutes be FAA TSO compliant and that they be inspected and repacked at regular intervals mandated by FAA regs. These days the mandated repack cycle is 180 days. back in the NORJACK days I recall it was shorter, perhaps 90 days. You  don't have to repack during periods of non use, but if you get a ramp check from an FAA inspector and have carried a chute aloft that is out of date, it's a fairly serious violation. 

377

thats what I was trying to say ....
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2334 on: November 08, 2017, 01:41:54 PM »
I know, and understood Georger. Just wanted to explain the nit picky regulatory details.

Some lazy riggers do so called "pencil packing". No inspection, no repack, just a logbook entry and packing card entry saying they did an I&R.  Not a huge problem UNLESS the rig has concealed interior damage. Mice have burrowed into in-date rigs by pushing under flaps, leaving very little exterior evidence.

Rigs packed 50 years ago have been jumped successfully. Takes a bit linger to deploy, but they generally open OK. Pilot chute springs compressed that long are weakened.

377

 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2335 on: November 08, 2017, 04:14:50 PM »
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"I was about to ask Coss to tell me who the Boeing Field-SEATAC driver was when he slammed down the phone."




That happens a lot with you, Bruce, doesn't it?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2336 on: November 08, 2017, 05:39:04 PM »
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"I was about to ask Coss to tell me who the Boeing Field-SEATAC driver was when he slammed down the phone."




That happens a lot with you, Bruce, doesn't it?


Yes, it does.

My understanding is that this behavior occurs because I am asking troubling questions, or making statements that make people uncomfortable.

Remember, truth is the first casualty of war. That was true back in the glory days of Athens, and it is no less true today.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:53:13 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2337 on: November 08, 2017, 10:38:14 PM »
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'There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.'

Actually there may be - the Pederson (sp?) audio interview? Did he say they were delivered by ??? (two FBI guys?) to the NWA office "upstairs" and they brought them down to the Freight Office (where Pederson and his supervisor were waiting) ?

According to Pederson his supervisor then took the out to the plane along with the money. No mention of Al Lee and we questioned that ... isnt that correct?
 

I'll have to check that again, but at this moment I am under the impression that Al Lee was the only ground contact that Tina had.  That is, Al Lee gave Tina the four parachutes and the money bag and she hauled them aboard one at a time.


Al Lee was the Ground Ops Chief for NWO and was out at the plane with the money and chutes. But he had company - the Homicide Detective from the Seattle PD. I forgethisname at the moment. {Edit: Owen McKenna, SPD, sourced to GG.}

We also have to consider where John "The G- Man" was, who was identified as boarding the plane by Larry Finegold, the US Assist DA for Seattle, who was sitting in Row 6 and knew John from the courts. According to multiple passengers - and Finegold - two of these men brought the money bag onboard and gave it to Tina in the forward section of the plane.

Al Lee was the Chief Pilot for NWA at Seattle.  He took the money and four parachutes out to the plane in a car.  He gave them to Tina at the bottom of the stairs and she carried them onboard in multiple trips before the passengers were released.

No FBI agent boarded the plane or apparently tried to since NWA had committed themselves to cooperating with Cooper.  Reportedly, an FAA man wanted to board the airplane to tell the hijacker that he was in serious trouble (something I can guarantee you Cooper already knew) but was not permitted to do so.

The airliner was flown back to SEATAC from Reno on Thursday (Thanksgiving Day) afternoon.  The George Harrison papers state that NWA repaired the airplane and had it back in service in not more than two days.  The Harrison papers give the exact details on this.

The flight crew were reunited at SEATAC with the other two stews and all of them were immediately placed on a regular NWA flight to Minneapolis.

Any removal of seats from the airliner was done by NWA at SEATAC.  Bruce Smith indicates that the airliner went to "Langley" for the seats removal.  He presumably means the FBI facilities at Langley, VA, but such would not be necessary.

In another post, Bruce states that the T-33 that was one of the first aircraft to attempt to intercept and follow the airliner was from "Mountain Home", presumably meaning Mountain Home, Idaho.  In reality, the T-33 was based at the Portland International Airport.

The above matters have been discussed many times on this forum along with the other questions he has asked.  So if Bruce wants answers, all he has to do is look up the information on this forum.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2338 on: November 08, 2017, 11:56:47 PM »
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'There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.'

Actually there may be - the Pederson (sp?) audio interview? Did he say they were delivered by ??? (two FBI guys?) to the NWA office "upstairs" and they brought them down to the Freight Office (where Pederson and his supervisor were waiting) ?

According to Pederson his supervisor then took the out to the plane along with the money. No mention of Al Lee and we questioned that ... isnt that correct?
 

I'll have to check that again, but at this moment I am under the impression that Al Lee was the only ground contact that Tina had.  That is, Al Lee gave Tina the four parachutes and the money bag and she hauled them aboard one at a time.


Al Lee was the Ground Ops Chief for NWO and was out at the plane with the money and chutes. But he had company - the Homicide Detective from the Seattle PD. I forgethisname at the moment. {Edit: Owen McKenna, SPD, sourced to GG.}

We also have to consider where John "The G- Man" was, who was identified as boarding the plane by Larry Finegold, the US Assist DA for Seattle, who was sitting in Row 6 and knew John from the courts. According to multiple passengers - and Finegold - two of these men brought the money bag onboard and gave it to Tina in the forward section of the plane.

Al Lee was the Chief Pilot for NWA at Seattle.  He took the money and four parachutes out to the plane in a car.  He gave them to Tina at the bottom of the stairs and she carried them onboard in multiple trips before the passengers were released.

No FBI agent boarded the plane or apparently tried to since NWA had committed themselves to cooperating with Cooper.  Reportedly, an FAA man wanted to board the airplane to tell the hijacker that he was in serious trouble (something I can guarantee you Cooper already knew) but was not permitted to do so.

The airliner was flown back to SEATAC from Reno on Thursday (Thanksgiving Day) afternoon.  The George Harrison papers state that NWA repaired the airplane and had it back in service in not more than two days.  The Harrison papers give the exact details on this.

The flight crew were reunited at SEATAC with the other two stews and all of them were immediately placed on a regular NWA flight to Minneapolis.

Any removal of seats from the airliner was done by NWA at SEATAC.  Bruce Smith indicates that the airliner went to "Langley" for the seats removal.  He presumably means the FBI facilities at Langley, VA, but such would not be necessary.

In another post, Bruce states that the T-33 that was one of the first aircraft to attempt to intercept and follow the airliner was from "Mountain Home", presumably meaning Mountain Home, Idaho.  In reality, the T-33 was based at the Portland International Airport.

The above matters have been discussed many times on this forum along with the other questions he has asked.  So if Bruce wants answers, all he has to do is look up the information on this forum.

... and the TAG test flight was on Nov 1 as I recall.

Bruce isnt looking for answers, the Narcissist is looking for a social media event and an argument where he thinks he can wear people down... then win the day. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 11:58:20 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2339 on: November 09, 2017, 12:48:54 AM »
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'There is no explanation in the notes as to how the two back chutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC.'

Actually there may be - the Pederson (sp?) audio interview? Did he say they were delivered by ??? (two FBI guys?) to the NWA office "upstairs" and they brought them down to the Freight Office (where Pederson and his supervisor were waiting) ?

According to Pederson his supervisor then took the out to the plane along with the money. No mention of Al Lee and we questioned that ... isnt that correct?
 

I'll have to check that again, but at this moment I am under the impression that Al Lee was the only ground contact that Tina had.  That is, Al Lee gave Tina the four parachutes and the money bag and she hauled them aboard one at a time.


Al Lee was the Ground Ops Chief for NWO and was out at the plane with the money and chutes. But he had company - the Homicide Detective from the Seattle PD. I forgethisname at the moment. {Edit: Owen McKenna, SPD, sourced to GG.}

We also have to consider where John "The G- Man" was, who was identified as boarding the plane by Larry Finegold, the US Assist DA for Seattle, who was sitting in Row 6 and knew John from the courts. According to multiple passengers - and Finegold - two of these men brought the money bag onboard and gave it to Tina in the forward section of the plane.

Al Lee was the Chief Pilot for NWA at Seattle.  He took the money and four parachutes out to the plane in a car.  He gave them to Tina at the bottom of the stairs and she carried them onboard in multiple trips before the passengers were released.

No FBI agent boarded the plane or apparently tried to since NWA had committed themselves to cooperating with Cooper.  Reportedly, an FAA man wanted to board the airplane to tell the hijacker that he was in serious trouble (something I can guarantee you Cooper already knew) but was not permitted to do so.

The airliner was flown back to SEATAC from Reno on Thursday (Thanksgiving Day) afternoon.  The George Harrison papers state that NWA repaired the airplane and had it back in service in not more than two days.  The Harrison papers give the exact details on this.

The flight crew were reunited at SEATAC with the other two stews and all of them were immediately placed on a regular NWA flight to Minneapolis.

Any removal of seats from the airliner was done by NWA at SEATAC.  Bruce Smith indicates that the airliner went to "Langley" for the seats removal.  He presumably means the FBI facilities at Langley, VA, but such would not be necessary.

In another post, Bruce states that the T-33 that was one of the first aircraft to attempt to intercept and follow the airliner was from "Mountain Home", presumably meaning Mountain Home, Idaho.  In reality, the T-33 was based at the Portland International Airport.

The above matters have been discussed many times on this forum along with the other questions he has asked.  So if Bruce wants answers, all he has to do is look up the information on this forum.

I fear we have been sidetracked for weeks in endless argumentation with Mr Smith. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  No topic is immune, he will accept no facts from anyone else except from people who arent even here (his models Snowmman, Smokin, Cook, etc he cites in his videos), and this is a hopeless enterprise. Not even a debate. Just an endless cycle of pathology which Mr Smith is perfectly happy to engage in forever - it suits his ends of delaying and sidetracking everyone else but those he is willing or wants to hear from as suits his media needs he can take back to Mountain News or make a video with. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 02:52:48 AM by georger »