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Georger, et. al., just a question: Why do you think Rataczak told me and others that he was flying east of V-23 when Cooper jumped? Confused? Wanted to tell me what he thought I wanted to hear? Just wanted to get me off the phone? Messing with me? It's what he remembers? It's the cover-story for whatever was going on in the USAF's deliberations and the transcript redactions? Etc...

Just askin'.

BTW: I'm really glad you're digging into this fp thing, with the Air Force and Seattle Center.

If you go by the map, the plane was east of V23 for some time, including the 8:10/11 position. 8:12 is in line with V23 then starts to go east again...

Georger:
Hasn't Ratczk used the word 'drift' a lot when referring to being east? I just worry about these 'latter day revelations of drifting and this n that'. There were no similar 'revelations' on Nov 25th and that is established fact. The search was laid out just east of Woodland stretching over to Ariel based on "statements by the pilots" plural. Who were those "statements" made to that caused the FBI and others to start searching in the Woodland area. What did those statements involve specifically. Did those statements hold up once the Air Force got involved? Where did things stand by the 30th? That's the area currently being fleshed out . . .   

Yup, Rataczak told me that the "wind probably pushed us a few miles east of Victor -23."

If Rataczak actually made the above statement, you can take it as being tongue in cheek or such.  When the airliner was on V-23 it was the job of the flight crew, or a coupled autopilot, to keep it the airway centerline per FAA standard operating procedures and directions.

Assuming the airliner flew direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would not be on an airway but was still in controlled airspace and would be flying headings as directed by the Seattle controllers.

In both cases above, the airliner would be flying a specific track on the ground and the "drift" would be cancelled out by the efforts of the flight crew to remain on the airway centerline or in the headings the airliner was directed to fly when off the airways.

The airliner would not simply be "drifting" anywhere.

Tongue in cheek, or foot in mouth? This from a guy whose job it is to know where they are! Sitting next to another pilot whose job it is to know where they are. How gullible do they think the public is? That would be my response. Such responses on the pilot's part cross the line and are tailored to be 'plausible deniability'. Might as well say "I dont know I wasn't there!"

Because, either around 8:11 or in that ballpark (on the company line) or after landing and debriefing in Reno, both Scott and Rataczak were quite specific and specific enough that it launched an actual search effort, at Woodland. Moreover that search continued on the same premise for several days. They thought they knew exactly where they were based on the time and 'a trim anomaly' in the airplane they experienced at around 8:11 and reported, as they were ... near or just passing Woodland, they reported! That is in the official record of this affair multiple times from at least a dozen separate sources. The "issue" of knowing Cooper's DZ was not due to some uncertainty reported by the pilots about 'where they were', but due to uncertainty in the winds and drift of Cooper (not the airplane) once Cooper left the plane. 

This east-west uncertainty that develops afterwards is plausible deniability, in my opinion. For one thing, the FBI didn't want the public interfering with the search or evidence on the ground. Still, the FBI answered reporter's questions fairly openly, in my opinion, in stark contrast to Scott and Rataczak (two company men) who suddenly go deaf, dumb, and blank except to their own company and searchers working behind the scenes. This is not conjecture on my part but the actual official record. Rataczak and Scott were both very certain about where they were when the 'trim anomaly' happened, and frankly their basic certainty then stayed in tact right up through the FBI Search map developed later, right up to the present day. Their east-west position has not fundamentally changed; only the timeline has changed and only by 1 minute! That is the official position and why it is the official position. Everything is based on Rataczak and Scott's initial reports made ... right up to today.

If in fact 305 was much further east than originally reported in multiple statements given to authorities then Scott and Rataczak were some of the worst pilots in history and 305 was actually LOST, and the Air Force and multiple radar systems are 100% incompetent and wrong! Rataczak might as well be saying: there were no eyes on the ground keeping track of us!   

Pay special attention to the mention of blackberry vines. They grow 10 feet tall and thick. However IF he died out there in the thickets, please explain the Tina Bar money find ! Logic should tell us he didn't perish in the deep forest ! JMHO

Pay special attention to the mention of blackberry vines. They grow 10 feet tall and thick. However IF he died out there in the thickets, please explain the Tina Bar money find ! Logic should tell us he didn't perish in the deep forest ! JMHO

Any black bears in this area? I would assume so. Any savvy person would clear himself of this area asap.

Interesting article here...

The part of this article stating that they FBI flew the route from Seattle south the next night (the night of Thanksgiving Day) with the same flight crew is also baloney.

The crew flew the 727 from Reno back to Seattle on the afternoon of Thanksgiving Day.  Remember that the crew vacated the aircraft in Reno the previous night about 11:30 PM and then were interviewed for several hours by the FBI.  After getting to a hotel, they presumably ate dinner and got something approaching eight hours sleep.  The next morning they presumably got up and ate breakfast, and then headed to the Reno airport where it would probably take another hour or two to clean up the mess left by the dogs, refuel, and do the planning and paper work for the flight back to Seattle.

The George Harrison papers state that when the airliner and four crew members arrived back in Seattle, they were deliberately kept from the media, and were on an NWA plane headed to Minneapolis as passengers within a matter of minutes (I think it was about 15 minutes) and apparently the other two flight attendants were also on this flight.  I believe they did talk to the media upon arriving in Minneapolis.

Pictures from this media interview in Minneapolis shows the three cockpit crew members with their arms folded which is a sign that they were totally turned off by the press conference.  Tina was talking to the media.  One of the other flight attendants was seated at a 90 degree angle to the media and apparently was wishing she was somewhere else.  The third flight attendant, Flo, was visible in the photos but seemingly completely disinterested as well.   

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Yup, Rataczak told me that the "wind probably pushed us a few miles east of Victor -23."

----

If Rataczak actually made the above statement, you can take it as being tongue in cheek or such.  When the airliner was on V-23 it was the job of the flight crew, or a coupled autopilot, to keep it the airway centerline per FAA standard operating procedures and directions.

Assuming the airliner flew direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would not be on an airway but was still in controlled airspace and would be flying headings as directed by the Seattle controllers.

In both cases above, the airliner would be flying a specific track on the ground and the "drift" would be cancelled out by the efforts of the flight crew to remain on the airway centerline or in the headings the airliner was directed to fly when off the airways.

The airliner would not simply be "drifting" anywhere....

So, Georger, what I gather from your post is that Rataczak was lying to me about the drift east of V-23? Yes?

I'll say it ... he's lying or he's a completely incompetent airhead.  He changes his story faster than a lying criminal in an interrogation room.  Rat said "the wind probably pushed us a few miles east of Victor - 23."  Total bullcrap!  That's not even possible, and I'll explain why.

How do airplanes stay on course in wind?  If the crew does nothing, the plane will drift with the wind and the aircraft will go way off course, thereby not reaching its intended destination.  The solution is very simple, and you will find it in any beginning physics or calculus text on vectors.  Example:  if the wind is blowing from the west, and the plane is flying south, a simple addition of vectors will correct the problem so the plane stays on its course and reaches its intended destination.  Create a vector that is in the exact opposite direction of the wind and has the same velocity as the wind and add it to the vector for V23 (plane's velocity and direction due south), and you will have the adjusted vector (adjusted speed and direction) the plane must fly to stay on course and reach its correct destination.  The planes's adjusted direction will have to be southwestly -- to compensate for the wind coming from the west.  This is a very simple calculation -- a simple calculation that Rataczak should have known.  And even if Rataczak did not know, the pilot, ATC, or the flight software would have known, and the simple adjustment would have been made -- easily and immediately. 

The more I listen to this Rataczak guy, the less impressed I become.  He changes his story as often as I change socks.  His story drifts with the wind -- ha ha.  I asked him why he keeps changing his story.  He replied, "the answer my friend is blowing in the wind..." 

Okay, anyway....I agree with Georger, was Rat and the crew out to lunch and totally incompetent, or was something else going on? 

The plane drifted with the wind....I can almost say with near total certainty.....that's total bullshit.

Meyer

This sounds like someone talking about the F-106's

More about the serial numbers....