Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1834365 times)

Offline dice

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2010 on: May 25, 2017, 07:11:10 PM »
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Any kind of upper (ranging from caffeine to amphetamines) would produce an effect 180 degrees opposite from what was observed. Our calm Cooper wasn't tweaking.

I avoid coffee on jump days. My resting heart rate is in the very low 70s. As many jumps as I've made you'd think I'd be calm exiting a King Air or Twin Otter at 14,500 ft. NOPE. My ham radio telemetry gear shows SPO2 and HR. Without caffeine, my HR spikes to over 170 BPM right before exit and during a jump.  With a morning coffee I would likely exceed that scary high rate. And that's a sport jump. No crime tension, sunny day, nice open landing area.

Jumping and its immediate prep is tense and scary, even under the very best of circumstances. Maybe Cooper popped some Valiums?

377

377, I'm thinking that the calmness could possibly be plausibly explained, had he been in veitnam military situations/jumps where his life was often at real risk, and thus he was used to it...so, when it came to jumping from a commercial airliner, stateside, it could have been much easier, relatively speaking...with nobody shooting at him, having a hot blonde stewardess, etc... Not saying this is what it was, but I do think that could explain the coolness sans drugs. (or both) 
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2011 on: May 25, 2017, 11:32:13 PM »


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Thanks for the physio lesson Georger, seriously! So 170 BPM is no big deal then. It does, however, show I'm scared, doesn't it?

I do know its a huge relief to see a good canopy inflate. I've had main canopy failures twice and I felt my heart racing like mad as I started my cutaway procedure. No telemetry or recording though.

If Cooper had been an MAC SOG soldier then the skyjack might have been a price of cake compared to night combat recon jumps over N Vietnam.

Coopers calm demeanor has always impressed me. I sure couldn't emulate it.   

377

go to a physio-cardio website to get the acceptable ranges for your weight, height, age, condition, etc. 170 for a brief period for an athlete in good physical condition at your age is no big deal. As one gets older a stress test is not out of order, that will define the parameters. and keep track of your blood pressure and a1c. Yearly check up. Dont let any suspicious or unusual condition linger - see a doctor.

 ;)
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2012 on: May 26, 2017, 01:14:25 AM »
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Georger wrote: "What were Cooper's 'tells'? What do you see? Clues into his background and identity. I think this is a very important part of the case that has received almost no attention."

I see aviation knowledge. Practical flight configuration stuff, flaps, speed, pressurization, altitude. Maybe a pilot, but any aircrew fits. Loadmaster?

The onboard behavior is distinctive, but I can't decipher the meaning.

I'd have been nervous as hell. Cooper was far cooler than I would have been.

377

Yes, his affect is rather flat at times. There is a lot at stake.

Remember that at some point Cooper told Tina or Flo that he had drugs ("speed"?) that would help the pilots stay alert if they needed them.  Perhaps Cooper had already taken some type of drug to keep himself calm, cool, and collected.

Were drugs such as this in widespread use in 1971?  But other drugs such as pot and LSD were widely used and advocated by people such as Timothy Leary.  The "turn on, tune in, drop out" culture was flourishing.


To be that calm, cool, and collected in such a crisis situation -- I don't think there would be too many drugs you could take that would keep you in that state without first incapacitating you.  He drank bourbon, and it would be foolish to take any kind of sedative or anti-psychotic with the booze-- they simple don't mix.  Mixing drugs and booze like this could put you to sleep or turn you into a raving maniac -- something I don't think Cooper would risk.  He was smart -- not the poor white trash, unsophisticated county bumpkin some people have made him out to be.  If he was not smart, then why are smart people like us sitting around 46 years later trying to figure out what he did?  IMHO, he was calm, cool, and collected because he had prior experience and training in such a situation.   
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2013 on: May 26, 2017, 03:40:29 AM »
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Georger wrote: "What were Cooper's 'tells'? What do you see? Clues into his background and identity. I think this is a very important part of the case that has received almost no attention."

I see aviation knowledge. Practical flight configuration stuff, flaps, speed, pressurization, altitude. Maybe a pilot, but any aircrew fits. Loadmaster?

The onboard behavior is distinctive, but I can't decipher the meaning.

I'd have been nervous as hell. Cooper was far cooler than I would have been.

377

Yes, his affect is rather flat at times. There is a lot at stake.

Remember that at some point Cooper told Tina or Flo that he had drugs ("speed"?) that would help the pilots stay alert if they needed them.  Perhaps Cooper had already taken some type of drug to keep himself calm, cool, and collected.

Were drugs such as this in widespread use in 1971?  But other drugs such as pot and LSD were widely used and advocated by people such as Timothy Leary.  The "turn on, tune in, drop out" culture was flourishing.


To be that calm, cool, and collected in such a crisis situation -- I don't think there would be too many drugs you could take that would keep you in that state without first incapacitating you.  He drank bourbon, and it would be foolish to take any kind of sedative or anti-psychotic with the booze-- they simple don't mix.  Mixing drugs and booze like this could put you to sleep or turn you into a raving maniac -- something I don't think Cooper would risk.  He was smart -- not the poor white trash, unsophisticated county bumpkin some people have made him out to be.  If he was not smart, then why are smart people like us sitting around 46 years later trying to figure out what he did?  IMHO, he was calm, cool, and collected because he had prior experience and training in such a situation.

No one actually saw him take the amps - right?  Alcohol and amps have the opposite effect; can lead to irregular heart beat etc. However he didn't drink that much on the plane. I fear I have just given the FBI a brand new way to kill Cooper off and claim Cooper died!   C:-) :))
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 03:41:40 AM by georger »
 

Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2014 on: May 26, 2017, 10:55:10 AM »
His calmness could be because this wasn't his first rodeo. Perhaps he had committed crimes before (not necessarily to this extent) but if he had some prior experience committing (and getting away with) some burglaries/robberies or other crimes in the past, that could help explain his confidence.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2015 on: May 26, 2017, 11:15:13 AM »
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His calmness could be because this wasn't his first rodeo. Perhaps he had committed crimes before (not necessarily to this extent) but if he had some prior experience committing (and getting away with) some burglaries/robberies or other crimes in the past, that could help explain his confidence.

Many believe he has a criminal record, but figuring out what it was is the missing part of the puzzle. burglars don't usually graduate to murder, or hijackings. bank robber, possibly, or some sort of white collar crimes?
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2016 on: May 26, 2017, 12:29:40 PM »
I've been thinking about Cooper's demeanor some more. First solo jumps are scary as hell. I remember how scared I was and I see first solo jumpers all the time while riding up for my jumps. They are ALL scared, though many try to act as if they are not. You can see how fast they are breathing, that's a dead giveaway.

Cooper's cool calm demeanor sure doesn't say first jump to me. And his familiarity with a suitable aircraft jump configuration says he was involved in aviation. Most outsiders don't know a flap from an aileron and they sure don't know about optimal flap angles for jet jumps.

377

 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2017 on: May 26, 2017, 01:16:17 PM »
377
First off , I want to congratulate you on your many years of jumping. You are one gutsy guy ! My uncle flew and instructed in world war 2. He was so brave and very athletic. After the war, he spent the rest of his life as a pilot for United Airlines until he had to retire because of his age. He told me his first jump was the scariest thing he ever had to do. I'm glad you told your story about how scared EVERY first time jumper was. It's one of many reasons I feel certain this was not Cooper's first jump. Once again my hats off to you and your many accomplishments.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2018 on: May 26, 2017, 01:32:07 PM »
One of many youtube videos about terrified first jumpers. And most of these are tandem jumps in which the stress level should be MUCH lower than a solo. You don't have to do anything on a tandem, you are just a passenger.

This terrified tandem jumper who refused to  exit, had the guts to go up again and overcome his fear,



377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2019 on: May 27, 2017, 04:38:55 AM »
I've never sky-dived. Don't think I ever will.

But I have gone mountain climbing, for awhile. I attended a weekend workshop on the basics with the Appalachian Mountain Club, and by the second or third day I was going up a 300-foot wall with just a "pitch leader." At about the 250-foot mark I had trouble making the pitch, but after resting and lots of encouragement I got up to the top, which was a ridge line. Afterwards, I hiked back down on the opposite side. The next day I went home, and I've never done any technical climbing ever again. It wasn't fun.

But I think of my pitch leader a lot. She was very cute, smart, and a med student at the U of P. Great gal. I wonder if she likes contra-dancing? Sigh.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 04:39:51 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2020 on: May 27, 2017, 09:12:29 AM »
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I've never sky-dived. Don't think I ever will.

But I have gone mountain climbing, for awhile. I attended a weekend workshop on the basics with the Appalachian Mountain Club, and by the second or third day I was going up a 300-foot wall with just a "pitch leader." At about the 250-foot mark I had trouble making the pitch, but after resting and lots of encouragement I got up to the top, which was a ridge line. Afterwards, I hiked back down on the opposite side. The next day I went home, and I've never done any technical climbing ever again. It wasn't fun.

But I think of my pitch leader a lot. She was very cute, smart, and a med student at the U of P. Great gal. I wonder if she likes contra-dancing? Sigh.

While you ponder navels you have never seen, and never will be allowed to see, tell us what you mean by LZ-A. LZ-B? Can you define LZ-A so it could be shown on a map?

« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 09:47:44 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2021 on: May 28, 2017, 05:03:38 AM »
LZ-A is Landing Zone "A." It was the rectilinear area that includes Ariel and Amboy and is the presumed primary landing zone for DB Cooper. It is approximately four miles wide by six miles long, ranging southwestwards from Amboy.

I have no particular maps to show you.

LZ-B, C, and D are neighboring sectors. Exactly which ones are where, I don't know. I think B is due north of A.

Why do you ask?

As for pondering navels, I have never done so. Do you? If so, what's it like?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 05:04:54 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2022 on: May 28, 2017, 05:19:17 AM »
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LZ-A is Landing Zone "A." It was the rectilinear area that includes Ariel and Amboy and is the presumed primary landing zone for DB Cooper. It is approximately four miles wide by six miles long, ranging southwestwards from Amboy.

I have no particular maps to show you.

LZ-B, C, and D are neighboring sectors. Exactly which ones are where, I don't know. I think B is due north of A.

Why do you ask?

As for pondering navels, I have never done so. Do you? If so, what's it like?

I ask because Ive been reading past posts on the early search 24th-30th. There are a lot of posts about this and some good newspaper articles written by an AP reporter at Woodland.  Then I compared all of this to your posts about this history - wow! you did a very comprehensive job Bruce. Lots of details and work on your part. You connected a lot of dots. Congrats! So now I want maps. I want to lay all of this out on some maps so things connect and make sense. Not sure what will come of this ...   
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 05:20:28 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2023 on: May 28, 2017, 11:57:54 PM »
Well, thanks for the kudos, G.

I have seen photos of maps, but I don't think I have them in my files. I think they may have been posted here or at the DZ a while back. I remember one aerial view with all the LZs drawn in. I think there are six in total. Basically from Chehalis/Castle Rock, WA to the Columbia, and the I-5 east to the Cascade ridge.

GG specifically mentions the Sheriff's deputies of Clark, Cowlitz, Lewis, and Wahkiakum Counties conducting some level of ground searching. I assume that the majority of that search was in cruisers on local roads, and little of the "boots on the ground" type of activity.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2024 on: May 29, 2017, 04:22:34 AM »
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Well, thanks for the kudos, G.

I have seen photos of maps, but I don't think I have them in my files. I think they may have been posted here or at the DZ a while back. I remember one aerial view with all the LZs drawn in. I think there are six in total. Basically from Chehalis/Castle Rock, WA to the Columbia, and the I-5 east to the Cascade ridge.

GG specifically mentions the Sheriff's deputies of Clark, Cowlitz, Lewis, and Wahkiakum Counties conducting some level of ground searching. I assume that the majority of that search was in cruisers on local roads, and little of the "boots on the ground" type of activity.

I think between your posts and my notes, family notes,  and newspaper articles I have enough to cover what GG brings up - Im building a daily timeline from 11/24 to 11/30 and out a week. I will finish that then try a few map layouts then bring everything here for your comment. Give me about a week.

Happy Memorial Day to all -