Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1834364 times)

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1995 on: May 24, 2017, 05:28:32 PM »
DBC's "childlike" delight actually getting the money and then the light hearted offer of a bundle to Flo... That behavior (assuming it was accurately reported) has always intrigued me. I am not a psychologist so I can't ascribe useful meaning to it, but it says something. Sure isn't typical robber behavior. The ones I dealt with were high strung and nervous during the crime, never offered a penny to others, did not engage in banter. They had simple goals: secure the money, get out and avoid apprehension. Cooper was different. he answered questions ("Do you have a grudge?"), he showed giddiness and light hearted generosity when the money was in his hands, and although he displayed a purported bomb, he didn't make constant verbal  threats about blowing everybody up. I can't figure out what it all means. Wish I could.

377
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1996 on: May 24, 2017, 05:50:35 PM »
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DBC's "childlike" delight actually getting the money and then the light hearted offer of a bundle to Flo... That behavior (assuming it was accurately reported) has always intrigued me. I am not a psychologist so I can't ascribe useful meaning to it, but it says something. Sure isn't typical robber behavior. The ones I dealt with were high strung and nervous during the crime, never offered a penny to others, did not engage in banter. They had simple goals: secure the money, get out and avoid apprehension. Cooper was different. he answered questions ("Do you have a grudge?"), he showed giddiness and light hearted generosity when the money was in his hands, and although he displayed a purported bomb, he didn't make constant verbal  threats about blowing everybody up. I can't figure out what it all means. Wish I could.

377

I think context is all-important. His behavior comes off as a stress reliever. Banter. Emotional release. Keep in mind they are in a very confined space, they are all trapped in effect, with a long way to go ..... until in the air and a jump. Lots of time left and a lot can go wrong which is on everyone's minds including Cooper 'if' he had normal reactions/empathy and was not psychopathic.  The FAA psychiatrist assumed Cooper was psychopathic. I dont see evidence of that.

What were Cooper's 'tells'? What do you see? Clues into his background and identity. I think this is a very important part of the case that has received almost no attention. 
 
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1997 on: May 24, 2017, 06:46:02 PM »
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Somehow I feel that Cooper was NOT a first time jumper. I know the FBI wants us to believe he died in jump and was a novice. However a lot of evidence shows he knew something !

Kermit,

Let me point out that parachutes are routinely worn ever day by thousands of people who never make an actual jump.  Cooper obviously had some knowledge of parachutes.  Nevertheless, that does not mean me had any actual jumping experience.

If a monkey sits down at a type writer and types 't', do we assume he has language?

If he types 'tttttttt' do we assume he has language ?

If he types out his name 'Pete' do we assume he has language?

If he types out the Lords pray and asks for milk, what do we assume - and what newspaper do we call !?

If he sits at a teletypewriter for two years and turns in a phD thesis, what do we do?

 :))

Or, should we administer a few typewriter tests and move on to observing and parsing his 'language' and what he and others of his kind are doing with their sounds and hand made iconograms?

 ;)

 


Now, that's  funny, Georger.

It illustrates the dilemma in profiling anyone. Only several types of people who would hijack a plane and demand a ransom - with a bomb - then jump out the back of the thing going 200mph! I mean, think about this ...

A very desperate man? A crazy person? A suicidal person? A person with some real skills and experience? It's not a normal human activity. They dont sell life insurance for this kind of thing!l

What were Cooper's 'tells'? So we could know Cooper better ?

Example: actual time spent trying to get stairs out 19:40-19:43. Three minutes even with initially reporting a problem. Time spent to identify the problem and solve was about 1-2 minutes. Mucklow sent to cockpit at 19:41; he no longer wanted or needed her help. He solved the stair problem on his own in about two minutes or less.. [time spent solving a mechanical problem is a function of intelligence/experience]

 ;)
 

Couldn't agree more....plus his calm and cool demeanor, nerves of steel, and knowing he was going to have to jump after dark.  I have never bought the notion he was inexperienced or unintelligent.
Meyer
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1998 on: May 24, 2017, 07:56:12 PM »
Georger wrote: "What were Cooper's 'tells'? What do you see? Clues into his background and identity. I think this is a very important part of the case that has received almost no attention."

I see aviation knowledge. Practical flight configuration stuff, flaps, speed, pressurization, altitude. Maybe a pilot, but any aircrew fits. Loadmaster?

The onboard behavior is distinctive, but I can't decipher the meaning.

I'd have been nervous as hell. Cooper was far cooler than I would have been.

377

 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1999 on: May 24, 2017, 08:05:03 PM »
I'm divided and voted 50% he survived as I find merit in Tina Bar money find that he did a no pull right into the Columbia. However I also am not closed minded and feel he could have easily survived jump and escaped. Finding $5800 of his loot doesn't prove he nosedived into the river. There's still $194,200 missing and where's everything else ? This entire highjacking started at Portland International airport so IF his escape vehicle was in Portland, How did he get back across the mighty Columbia river. Well there's only 2 crossings, one being the Interstate 5 bridge. It's a long bridge and it's I 5 so not the best place to go undetected. Also it was then and is now a manned draw bridge with 24/7 crew working. It would not be my choice ! However the other crossing is a railroad bridge and that bridge is 6 miles upriver from Tina Bar. Interesting and Meyer and I are planning on going there and probably take some photos of it. I'm kinda familiar with it and it isn't a draw bridge but does swing open for large ships and boats. Interesting and I'll add more later.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2000 on: May 24, 2017, 11:25:35 PM »
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Georger wrote: "What were Cooper's 'tells'? What do you see? Clues into his background and identity. I think this is a very important part of the case that has received almost no attention."

I see aviation knowledge. Practical flight configuration stuff, flaps, speed, pressurization, altitude. Maybe a pilot, but any aircrew fits. Loadmaster?

The onboard behavior is distinctive, but I can't decipher the meaning.

I'd have been nervous as hell. Cooper was far cooler than I would have been.

377

Yes, his affect is rather flat at times. There is a lot at stake.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2001 on: May 25, 2017, 12:09:17 AM »
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Georger wrote: "What were Cooper's 'tells'? What do you see? Clues into his background and identity. I think this is a very important part of the case that has received almost no attention."

I see aviation knowledge. Practical flight configuration stuff, flaps, speed, pressurization, altitude. Maybe a pilot, but any aircrew fits. Loadmaster?

The onboard behavior is distinctive, but I can't decipher the meaning.

I'd have been nervous as hell. Cooper was far cooler than I would have been.

377

Yes, his affect is rather flat at times. There is a lot at stake.

Remember that at some point Cooper told Tina or Flo that he had drugs ("speed"?) that would help the pilots stay alert if they needed them.  Perhaps Cooper had already taken some type of drug to keep himself calm, cool, and collected.

Were drugs such as this in widespread use in 1971?  But other drugs such as pot and LSD were widely used and advocated by people such as Timothy Leary.  The "turn on, tune in, drop out" culture was flourishing.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2002 on: May 25, 2017, 12:37:18 AM »
Quote
Were drugs such as this in widespread use in 1971?  But other drugs such as pot and LSD were widely used and advocated by people such as Timothy Leary.  The "turn on, tune in, drop out" culture was flourishing.

Pills have always been abused..back then it was uppers & downers. early 80's we use to take speed in a pill form called black beauty, it was a prescription diet pill...we took them during Friday/Saturday nite rush hour at the pizza hut I worked at to get through the orders as quick as we could.

The key ingredients found in this pill are Dextroamphetamine and Biphetamine, which are both amphetamines. They boost the metabolism and may decrease hunger. However, some side effects may be experienced when taking Black Beauty Diet Pills. These include headache, heart palpitations, insomnia, and even stroke.

Black beauties were the drug of choice for truck drivers during the late 60's and early 70's, prior to the advent of methamphetamine. Methamphetamine became popular because drivers had the ability to sleep after the drug's effects wore off.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 12:41:11 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2003 on: May 25, 2017, 12:40:42 PM »
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Quote
Were drugs such as this in widespread use in 1971?  But other drugs such as pot and LSD were widely used and advocated by people such as Timothy Leary.  The "turn on, tune in, drop out" culture was flourishing.

Pills have always been abused..back then it was uppers & downers. early 80's we use to take speed in a pill form called black beauty, it was a prescription diet pill...we took them during Friday/Saturday nite rush hour at the pizza hut I worked at to get through the orders as quick as we could.

The key ingredients found in this pill are Dextroamphetamine and Biphetamine, which are both amphetamines. They boost the metabolism and may decrease hunger. However, some side effects may be experienced when taking Black Beauty Diet Pills. These include headache, heart palpitations, insomnia, and even stroke.

Black beauties were the drug of choice for truck drivers during the late 60's and early 70's, prior to the advent of methamphetamine. Methamphetamine became popular because drivers had the ability to sleep after the drug's effects wore off.

My God! Cooper was a truck driver, gone bad.  :)
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2004 on: May 25, 2017, 12:50:27 PM »
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Quote
Were drugs such as this in widespread use in 1971?  But other drugs such as pot and LSD were widely used and advocated by people such as Timothy Leary.  The "turn on, tune in, drop out" culture was flourishing.

Pills have always been abused..back then it was uppers & downers. early 80's we use to take speed in a pill form called black beauty, it was a prescription diet pill...we took them during Friday/Saturday nite rush hour at the pizza hut I worked at to get through the orders as quick as we could.

The key ingredients found in this pill are Dextroamphetamine and Biphetamine, which are both amphetamines. They boost the metabolism and may decrease hunger. However, some side effects may be experienced when taking Black Beauty Diet Pills. These include headache, heart palpitations, insomnia, and even stroke.

Black beauties were the drug of choice for truck drivers during the late 60's and early 70's, prior to the advent of methamphetamine. Methamphetamine became popular because drivers had the ability to sleep after the drug's effects wore off.

My God! Cooper was a truck driver, gone bad.  :)

Not necessarily.  The military does issue drugs of various kinds to personnel, including pilots, to enhance their performance during some missions.  This is separate from the illegal use of "recreational drugs".
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2005 on: May 25, 2017, 01:03:19 PM »
I don't really see the need for them in the situation, unless he didn't have much of a plan after he landed with possibilities of being on the ground for an extended amount of time. people take these types of drugs for different reasons, we did it to get through the orders faster, while others take them to stay awake.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2006 on: May 25, 2017, 02:23:54 PM »
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I don't really see the need for them in the situation, unless he didn't have much of a plan after he landed with possibilities of being on the ground for an extended amount of time. people take these types of drugs for different reasons, we did it to get through the orders faster, while others take them to stay awake.

Its no surprise drugs would be interlaced with the case - drugs were 'epidemic' and 'endemic' as a cultural artifact in the 70s. Everyone took drugs of one kind or another - everyone for all kinds of reasons! One might as well point to 'pants' as a major feature of the case. Means little on its face. For all we know the pilots and law enforcement people were all 'on drugs' too! Nothing stands out; had Cooper offered LSD or heroine to Tina, that would have been distinctive. Amphetamines in the 70s were as common as Corn Flakes ... in America!

However, does Amphetamines point to him more likely being American than Canadian, Cuban, Mexican, Lithuanian as a common cultural tool in 1971? Statistically, yes.  ;) Negotiable American drugs?   

Mr. Cooper was right in line with the common American way of life in the 70s. All American Boy! Probably in denial too!  O0

It means that Cooper was part of the modern industrial educated life stream, in 1971 ... in contrast to a foul mouthed ignorant (Mexican peasant) food service worker (Himmelsbach stereotype).
 ;)
 

 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 02:46:16 PM by georger »
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2007 on: May 25, 2017, 02:59:50 PM »
Any kind of upper (ranging from caffeine to amphetamines) would produce an effect 180 degrees opposite from what was observed. Our calm Cooper wasn't tweaking.

I avoid coffee on jump days. My resting heart rate is in the very low 70s. As many jumps as I've made you'd think I'd be calm exiting a King Air or Twin Otter at 14,500 ft. NOPE. My ham radio telemetry gear shows SPO2 and HR. Without caffeine, my HR spikes to over 170 BPM right before exit and during a jump.  With a morning coffee I would likely exceed that scary high rate. And that's a sport jump. No crime tension, sunny day, nice open landing area.

Jumping and its immediate prep is tense and scary, even under the very best of circumstances. Maybe Cooper popped some Valiums?

377


« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:05:06 PM by 377 »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2008 on: May 25, 2017, 04:26:25 PM »
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Any kind of upper (ranging from caffeine to amphetamines) would produce an effect 180 degrees opposite from what was observed. Our calm Cooper wasn't tweaking.

I avoid coffee on jump days. My resting heart rate is in the very low 70s. As many jumps as I've made you'd think I'd be calm exiting a King Air or Twin Otter at 14,500 ft. NOPE. My ham radio telemetry gear shows SPO2 and HR. Without caffeine, my HR spikes to over 170 BPM right before exit and during a jump.  With a morning coffee I would likely exceed that scary high rate. And that's a sport jump. No crime tension, sunny day, nice open landing area.

Jumping and its immediate prep is tense and scary, even under the very best of circumstances. Maybe Cooper popped some Valiums?

377

You may be (whats the right word) exaggerating this?  160-70 for brief periods of exertion is pretty normal for a healthy body. 220 for brief periods is even acceptable IF the underlying physiology is normal and robust. It's when you have an 'issue' that high blood pressure becomes 'an issue' - diabetes, arterial sclerosis, pulmonary issues, or any serious underlying disease/weakness. Say I go in with surgery and tweak your heart valve neurology, remove some tissue, reconnect a few nerves, do an S&M on one of your values ... then I will race your heart to see the effects (I must do this!). Would you care to guess what I will be raising your systolic rate up to  to test the work/results before letting you off the table? It will scare the hell out of you! 120/70-80 is resting potential only. When you dream you go higher than that! You may go up to 180 if its a stress dream. Its all part of how the body maintains metabolism and tests of its own limitations, which it does regularly if you are normal. :))
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 04:31:03 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2009 on: May 25, 2017, 05:49:19 PM »
Thanks for the physio lesson Georger, seriously! So 170 BPM is no big deal then. It does, however, show I'm scared, doesn't it?

I do know its a huge relief to see a good canopy inflate. I've had main canopy failures twice and I felt my heart racing like mad as I started my cutaway procedure. No telemetry or recording though.

If Cooper had been an MAC SOG soldier then the skyjack might have been a price of cake compared to night combat recon jumps over N Vietnam.

Coopers calm demeanor has always impressed me. I sure couldn't emulate it.   

377