Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1833025 times)

MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1935 on: May 20, 2017, 02:08:12 AM »
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Meyer - I actually contacted forensics before I sent the last post to "obtain some educational insight." Basically after looking at me somewhat "suspectedly" (total pun intended) they said that while its "potentially possible" to get prints off of butts; you'd have better luck with the DNA because  the porous surface of the paper would distort the print.

They tried to finger print the Tina Bar money and basically got nowhere. (as predicted)  ;) Thats why some of that money is black - its silver nitrate solution used in the old style method of fingerprinting.


Thanks JLa for going the extra mile, good information.  Of course, Georger, i do remember some discussion on the DZ about the silver nitrate used for finerprinting.  Thanks for the good information.
Meyer
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1936 on: May 20, 2017, 02:28:20 AM »
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Quick update regarding weather. I'm working in my garden getting ready to plant corn and beans. What does this mean in Oregon and Washington ? It can only mean that the rain has taken a break and the next week or so is going to be dry and sunny ! Good news for our Tina Bar project but I'll be in Portland tomorrow and report back. Often warm weather causes snow melt upriver so don't get too antsy just yet. Yesterday was the 37 th anniversity of Mt St Helens eruption. How many other posters lived nearby back them ?


Hopefully the weather and River level  will start cooperating so we can get to Caterpillar Island and get the project underway. 

Yes, Mount St. Helens -- I was a graduate student at EWU and living in Spokane.  I was standing outside, in the yard, enjoying the sunshine.  It was a beautiful, bright, sunny day -- I was visiting with my next door neighbor.  As we were talking, we happened to look west, and appearing over the horizon was this gigantic, dark, black cloud -- slowly moving our way.  It was something right out of the Dust Bowl, only worse.  In an hour, it was dark as night, and the ash began to fall.  It fell...and fell....and fell some more.  We got several inches.  The ash was the finest powder I've ever seen, and if you drove in it, count on its ruining your air filter system -- and motor for that matter.  We got holed up for a week, couldn't go outside.  Cleanup was something else.  What a mess!  Ash piled up like snow in winter time.  I collected a quart jar of the ash, I still have it.  Quite the experience.....

Meyer
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1937 on: May 20, 2017, 10:24:50 PM »
well, Loren Peterson might have some truth to what he is saying in some points..
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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1938 on: May 20, 2017, 11:20:22 PM »
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well, Loren Peterson might have some truth to what he is saying in some points..

My guess is that the "CSM" means that Joe May was the Customer Service Manager.
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1939 on: May 21, 2017, 12:03:33 AM »
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well, Loren Peterson might have some truth to what he is saying in some points..

These docs have to be reconciled.

Note* both FBI and Peterson accounts refer to a bag-container with a seal that had to be cut!  In the FBI account bank security person Grinnel cuts the seal - in Peterson's account he cut the seal. Glad to see they both cut the same seal! (no mention of a walrus or a whale being cut up)  ;)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 12:25:32 AM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1940 on: May 21, 2017, 12:48:26 AM »
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well, Loren Peterson might have some truth to what he is saying in some points..

Who is the "I' in this report attached? This report refers to events happening in the Operations Office. The Peterson report refers to events happening in the Air Freight Office. The Transcript says the money arrived first while they were still waiting for the chutes. If you recall Cooper was informed that the money had arrived and they were still waiting on the chutes - Cooper was not happy.

Was the money delivered first to the Operations Office while the parachutes arrived slightly later and were delivered to the Air Freight Office. Then the money was taken down to the Air Freight Office where May and Peterson and others got involved before everything was taken out to Al Lee and/or the plane? That could explain different accounts by all of the different people involved.  The FBI doc doesn't even mention the Air Freight Office. But in fact, the Air Freight Office was closest to the tarmac and the plane.

The differences in these accounts was 'who cut the seal' and who took what out to the plane; maybe Lee had the chutes while the other guy took the money to the steps of the plane for Mucklow, just as Peterson says. Tina brought the money on first then went back out to Lee in his car for the chutes.

It makes some sense two different offices would be involved - Operations and Air Freight which was the closest location to the plane sitting on the runway.
     

« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 01:01:29 AM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1941 on: May 21, 2017, 01:58:41 AM »
These are different accounts from different places at different times, by different people. These accounts are joined but not totally inconsistent. Example, each party talks about cutting the seal on the container of money from the bank.

If you recall according to the Transcript the money arrived before the chutes - Cooper was informed the money had arrived and they were waiting for the chutes before landing, as per Cooper's demands. 

Doc A refers to the money arriving in the Operations Office.
Doc B refers to the parachutes arriving in the Air Freight Office which was physically closest to where 305 would soon be landing and pulling up next to, just as Peterson says.

Peterson clearly says part of what he is reporting are things he heard about. Peterson may never have known that the money first arrived in the Operations Office, or he could be leaving that part out. Quite obviously the money was then taken down to the Air Freight Office which was physically located closest to the runway and the plane, to be transferred from there on to the plane. While the chutes were driven directly to the Air Freight processing office because it was on ground level.

Who did what in each place at a different time is up for debate but there is room for almost everything described in each account, taking place at different times by different people prior to everything being taken to the plane ... the parachutes put in Al Lee's car. 

The agent Peterson describes arriving with the money in the Air Freight office (looked like a real agent) is probably one of the Agents described in Doc A who was in the Operations Office and came down with the money container from the Operations Office to the Air Freight office. Peterson is seeing him for the first time.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 05:46:25 AM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1942 on: May 21, 2017, 09:17:50 AM »
Doc A is from the 302's Gray released, and Doc 2 is in the Harrison files...

I'm just wondering if Peterson has mixed this all up over the years (adding some) and the information was told to him by Joe May. he's the only one claiming the "satchel" was an item that was from Northwest airlines. one would think this would of been documented along with Peterson's name showing up somewhere but it hasn't happened so far. he's implying they showed up with the money in the canvas bag, then placed into the black bag supplied by Northwest. why do they need another bag at this point only to be taken out again minutes later and given to Tina?

The deal breaker is the photocopy of the check for $200,000, not $250,000. this puts Peterson's story in question right there. he said he never counted it, but could of been told or over heard them talk about the original $250 grand. he also claims it came from "the National Reserve" here, he could of mixed up First "National" bank, and a "reserve fund" should of remembered counting 125 bundles...

2 butts
6 box meals
Cooper gauged the fuel
$250 grand
Radio cuts out over the Columbia.
Chute from McChord
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 01:50:24 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1943 on: May 21, 2017, 09:57:00 AM »
Was a "knapsack" his original term for his demand? don't these typically fit on the back? was the original plan to use the reserve?

He would still need to use the back chute though?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 10:07:35 AM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1944 on: May 21, 2017, 02:02:16 PM »
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Doc A is from the 302's Gray released, and Doc 2 is in the Harrison files...

I'm just wondering if Peterson has mixed this all up over the years (adding some) and the information was told to him by Joe May. he's the only one claiming the "satchel" was an item that was from Northwest airlines. one would think this would of been documented along with Peterson's name showing up somewhere but it hasn't happened so far. he's implying they showed up with the money in the canvas bag, then placed into the black bag supplied by Northwest. why do they need another bag at this point only to be taken out again minutes later and given to give to Tina?

The deal breaker is the photocopy of the check for $200,000, not $250,000. this puts Peterson's story in question right there. he said he never counted it, but could of been told or over heard them talk about the original $250 grand. he also claims it came from "the National Reserve" here, he could of mixed up First "National" bank, and a "reserve fund" should of remembered counting 125 bundles...

2 butts
6 box meals
Cooper gauged the fuel
$250 grand
Radio cuts out over the Columbia.
Chute from McChord

Unless someone told Peterson how much each bundle was worth he had no way to count anything. If each bundle has a different value, as per Ckret, he has no way to make a count. One thing is obvious: everything converged on the Air Freight loading room from different places with different people involved, to be taken to the plane. That brought May and Peterson into the picture. Peterson may be confused about the identities of some of the people involved. People he identifies as FBI may have been other security people or even other law enforcement people arriving as backup to the arrival of the chutes or the money.

Hopefully more will come ...  Hopefully book writer and supersleuth Gray wont stand in the way! ... 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 02:08:28 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1945 on: May 21, 2017, 02:14:07 PM »
Until more proof is shown, it's only May that is in the picture. no documents have surfaced with Peterson, other than his own admissions...
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1946 on: May 21, 2017, 02:16:30 PM »
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Until more proof is shown, it's only May that is in the picture. no documents have surfaced with Peterson, other than his own admissions...

I have confirmation about Peterson - been busy yesterday. Hopfully more is to come. The Cooper Store is closed today!  8)
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1947 on: May 21, 2017, 02:47:38 PM »
since we are closed, I guess I'll come back tomorrow?
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1948 on: May 21, 2017, 02:48:49 PM »
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Until more proof is shown, it's only May that is in the picture. no documents have surfaced with Peterson, other than his own admissions...

I will say this, and I have this much confirmed: Peterson's account he gave WSHM and his account today, is scrambled. One example is: chutes coming from McChord. He either has forgotten or he never knew that the McChord chutes were cancelled. He fails to say that clearly in his explanation given to WSHM. Peterson was basically a bystander. It was May and others making decisions with the latest up to date information at the time. Peterson's role was mainly secondary. Just as he says, a lot of what he knew at the time was due to 'things he heard from others', not because of his personal involvement. Still, his interview provides context and its the full context beyond Peterson himself that is crucial to have. 
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1949 on: May 21, 2017, 02:50:52 PM »
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since we are closed, I guess I'll come back tomorrow?

I meant people will be more available tomorrow and during the work week. People are off and offices are closed today on Sunday.

I want to understand a lot more about this socalled 'count' Peterson made and that will require some research.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 02:55:16 PM by georger »
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