Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1832390 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1860 on: May 14, 2017, 03:58:37 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1861 on: May 14, 2017, 04:02:05 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

no answer. what is furthest North that 20:09 could be in your analysis..

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1862 on: May 14, 2017, 04:02:55 PM »
Quote
no answer. what is furthest North that 20:09 could be in your analysis..

close to the placard...
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1863 on: May 14, 2017, 04:08:01 PM »
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no answer. what is furthest North that 20:09 could be in your analysis..

close to the placard...

What is accuracy of the TT communication and machine timestamp?   2 min?


and it isn't silver lake, it is about 15 N of Merwin..

Assuming DBC left the plane 15-45 sec after the placard then my primary zone is about 15 mi N of Merwin and move SOUTH from there, the further south you move the lower the probability (delay on the Airtstairs)

What is the furthest point N that 20:09 can be based on your analysis?

Where does 20:09 intersect.. with a line moving south from my zone?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 04:21:19 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1864 on: May 14, 2017, 04:17:02 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1865 on: May 14, 2017, 04:27:19 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

Yes, exactly...  NOW you are getting it..

Instead of trying to figure out where the plane was exactly at x time,, I figured out a primary zone where DBC landed based on the placard plus a 15-45 second delay. Then WORK south from there...
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1866 on: May 14, 2017, 04:35:42 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

as has been said a million times in all discussions clear back to 2004, having the stairs down and leaving the plane produces physical evidence the crew would notice - unavoidable. The Test flight checked that out to clarify and confirm those physical facts. But, the test flight probably wasn't even necessary because as all skydivers have always reported including the Boeing Skydiving club and avionics group, you can't even open those stairs or play around with them without producing physical effects. Then the stairs slamming shut after weight is off them - produces more physical effects. Cooper was inside a cylinder moving at 200mph with a hole opened at the rear position of that cylinder. There were no physical effects reported until ______________ in the time frame. The position of the plane is separate. But all physical effects happened south of the placard drop zone.

This may not be the glamorous answer Flyjack wants, but it is the answer to the empiracle problem.

Moreover, as Kermit may tell us some day soon, people searched throughout the whole placard find area looking for 'anything' related to the Cooper hijacking. No one noticed or found anything additional to the placard, including the emergency exit door Flyjack claims must be there in the same area. I think people searched that area or kept their eyes open for anything new, for years following the well publicized placard find. It would not even surprise me to find out that the FBI went up and searched that area, or asked people to keep an eye out following the placard find. The placard find aroused a lot of public interest.         
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1867 on: May 14, 2017, 04:38:38 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

Yes, exactly...  NOW you are getting it..

Instead of trying to figure out where the plane was exactly at x time,, I figured out a primary zone where DBC landed based on the placard plus a 15-45 second delay. Then WORK south from there...

So are you now changing your previous map location?  are you now changing your previous statements? 

It just seems toi me every time we catch up to you and think we understand what it is you are saying, you waltz back in here (like Jo Weber) and change things again! ? Somebody here called it the Crying Wolf Effect.   

 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 04:41:47 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1868 on: May 14, 2017, 04:43:54 PM »
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Quote
no answer. what is furthest North that 20:09 could be in your analysis..

close to the placard...

What is accuracy of the TT communication and machine timestamp?   2 min?

I assume that your "TT communication and machine timestamp" refers to the teletypewriter that the ARINC people used to pass messages between airliners and their companies.

Here is how that works.  Assume that an airliner in flight wishes to pass a message to its company's office at its next destination.  The airliner would contact the ARINC service on its frequency and tell the radio operator who he was, who he wanted to contact, and then the message.  The ARINC operator would then enter that in a prescribed format in his teletype and push the "send" button.  The teletype would automatically enter the sent time at the end of the message. 

If the message required a reply to the airliner, the reply would be sent by teletype to ARINC and they would figure out where the airliner was at that point and route the message to the appropriate ARINC ground station which would then contact the airliner on the ARINC radio frequency and give the message.

In the case of the NWA hijacking, a phone patch was set up by ARINC so that the NWA station in Seattle and NWA offices in Minneapolis could listen to the actual radio communications between ARINC and the airliner.

There are two ARINC messages with teletype time stamps showing and notes from NWA/FBI personnel who recorded the time of the actual radio transmission.  In each case, the teletypewriter message was time stamped two minutes after the actual radio transmission.  But two minutes is not a standard and the time difference could be less or more depending on a number of factors.   

 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1869 on: May 14, 2017, 04:44:26 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

as has been said a million times in all discussions clear back to 2004, having the stairs down and leaving the plane produces physical evidence the crew would notice - unavoidable. The Test flight checked that out to clarify and confirm those physical facts. But, the test flight probably wasn't even necessary because as all skydivers have always reported including the Boeing Skydiving club and avionics group, you can't even open those stairs or play around with them without producing physical effects. Then the stairs slamming shut after weight is off them - produces more physical effects. Cooper was inside a cylinder moving at 200mph with a hole opened at the rear position of that cylinder. There were no physical effects reported until ______________ in the time frame. The position of the plane is separate. But all physical effects happened south of the placard drop zone.

This may not be the glamorous answer Flyjack wants, but it is the answer to the empiracle problem.

Moreover, as Kermit may tell us some day soon, people searched throughout the whole placard find area looking for 'anything' related to the Cooper hijacking. No one noticed or found anything additional to the placard, including the emergency exit door Flyjack claims must be there in the same area. I think people searched that area or kept their eyes open for anything new, for years following the well publicized placard find. It would not even surprise me to find out that the FBI went up and searched that area, or asked people to keep an eye out following the placard find. The placard find aroused a lot of public interest.       

Georger, I agree with that... 

Would DBC have drifted slightly NE after he left the plane?

TT timestamp is after communications and rounded to min, it can be out 2 min from real time.

You guys tell me the most N point the plane could be at 20:09 and that will be very close to 2 miles south of my primary zone..

 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1870 on: May 14, 2017, 04:50:35 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

as has been said a million times in all discussions clear back to 2004, having the stairs down and leaving the plane produces physical evidence the crew would notice - unavoidable. The Test flight checked that out to clarify and confirm those physical facts. But, the test flight probably wasn't even necessary because as all skydivers have always reported including the Boeing Skydiving club and avionics group, you can't even open those stairs or play around with them without producing physical effects. Then the stairs slamming shut after weight is off them - produces more physical effects. Cooper was inside a cylinder moving at 200mph with a hole opened at the rear position of that cylinder. There were no physical effects reported until ______________ in the time frame. The position of the plane is separate. But all physical effects happened south of the placard drop zone.

This may not be the glamorous answer Flyjack wants, but it is the answer to the empiracle problem.

Moreover, as Kermit may tell us some day soon, people searched throughout the whole placard find area looking for 'anything' related to the Cooper hijacking. No one noticed or found anything additional to the placard, including the emergency exit door Flyjack claims must be there in the same area. I think people searched that area or kept their eyes open for anything new, for years following the well publicized placard find. It would not even surprise me to find out that the FBI went up and searched that area, or asked people to keep an eye out following the placard find. The placard find aroused a lot of public interest.       

Georger, I agree with that... 

Would DBC have drifted slightly NE after he left the plane?

TT timestamp is after communications and rounded to min, it can be out 2 min from real time.

You guys tell me the most N point the plane could be at 20:09 and that will be very close to 2 miles south of my primary zone..

If Cooper had jumped and immediately opened his parachute at the same time the placard separated from the airliner, they would have landed fairly close together.  Their descent rates would be about the same.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1871 on: May 14, 2017, 04:52:35 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

as has been said a million times in all discussions clear back to 2004, having the stairs down and leaving the plane produces physical evidence the crew would notice - unavoidable. The Test flight checked that out to clarify and confirm those physical facts. But, the test flight probably wasn't even necessary because as all skydivers have always reported including the Boeing Skydiving club and avionics group, you can't even open those stairs or play around with them without producing physical effects. Then the stairs slamming shut after weight is off them - produces more physical effects. Cooper was inside a cylinder moving at 200mph with a hole opened at the rear position of that cylinder. There were no physical effects reported until ______________ in the time frame. The position of the plane is separate. But all physical effects happened south of the placard drop zone.

This may not be the glamorous answer Flyjack wants, but it is the answer to the empiracle problem.

Moreover, as Kermit may tell us some day soon, people searched throughout the whole placard find area looking for 'anything' related to the Cooper hijacking. No one noticed or found anything additional to the placard, including the emergency exit door Flyjack claims must be there in the same area. I think people searched that area or kept their eyes open for anything new, for years following the well publicized placard find. It would not even surprise me to find out that the FBI went up and searched that area, or asked people to keep an eye out following the placard find. The placard find aroused a lot of public interest.       

Georger, I agree with that... 

Would DBC have drifted slightly NE after he left the plane?

TT timestamp is after communications and rounded to min, it can be out 2 min from real time.

You guys tell me the most N point the plane could be at 20:09 and that will be very close to 2 miles south of my primary zone..

If Cooper had jumped and immediately opened his parachute at the same time the placard separated from the airliner, they would have landed fairly close together.  Their descent rates would be about the same.

What if DBC left the plane 45 seconds after the placard? how far away? (South) or 1 minute later.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1872 on: May 14, 2017, 04:56:20 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

as has been said a million times in all discussions clear back to 2004, having the stairs down and leaving the plane produces physical evidence the crew would notice - unavoidable. The Test flight checked that out to clarify and confirm those physical facts. But, the test flight probably wasn't even necessary because as all skydivers have always reported including the Boeing Skydiving club and avionics group, you can't even open those stairs or play around with them without producing physical effects. Then the stairs slamming shut after weight is off them - produces more physical effects. Cooper was inside a cylinder moving at 200mph with a hole opened at the rear position of that cylinder. There were no physical effects reported until ______________ in the time frame. The position of the plane is separate. But all physical effects happened south of the placard drop zone.

This may not be the glamorous answer Flyjack wants, but it is the answer to the empiracle problem.

Moreover, as Kermit may tell us some day soon, people searched throughout the whole placard find area looking for 'anything' related to the Cooper hijacking. No one noticed or found anything additional to the placard, including the emergency exit door Flyjack claims must be there in the same area. I think people searched that area or kept their eyes open for anything new, for years following the well publicized placard find. It would not even surprise me to find out that the FBI went up and searched that area, or asked people to keep an eye out following the placard find. The placard find aroused a lot of public interest.       

Georger, I agree with that... 

Would DBC have drifted slightly NE after he left the plane?

TT timestamp is after communications and rounded to min, it can be out 2 min from real time.

You guys tell me the most N point the plane could be at 20:09 and that will be very close to 2 miles south of my primary zone..

The most northerly point the airliner could have been at 8:20:09 PM PST would be about 30 DME miles south of the Portland VORTAC (now the Battleground VORTAC).  The airliner reported at 8:18 PM PST that it was 23 DME miles south of the Portland VORTAC.   
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1873 on: May 14, 2017, 05:00:40 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

as has been said a million times in all discussions clear back to 2004, having the stairs down and leaving the plane produces physical evidence the crew would notice - unavoidable. The Test flight checked that out to clarify and confirm those physical facts. But, the test flight probably wasn't even necessary because as all skydivers have always reported including the Boeing Skydiving club and avionics group, you can't even open those stairs or play around with them without producing physical effects. Then the stairs slamming shut after weight is off them - produces more physical effects. Cooper was inside a cylinder moving at 200mph with a hole opened at the rear position of that cylinder. There were no physical effects reported until ______________ in the time frame. The position of the plane is separate. But all physical effects happened south of the placard drop zone.

This may not be the glamorous answer Flyjack wants, but it is the answer to the empiracle problem.

Moreover, as Kermit may tell us some day soon, people searched throughout the whole placard find area looking for 'anything' related to the Cooper hijacking. No one noticed or found anything additional to the placard, including the emergency exit door Flyjack claims must be there in the same area. I think people searched that area or kept their eyes open for anything new, for years following the well publicized placard find. It would not even surprise me to find out that the FBI went up and searched that area, or asked people to keep an eye out following the placard find. The placard find aroused a lot of public interest.       

Georger, I agree with that... 

Would DBC have drifted slightly NE after he left the plane?

TT timestamp is after communications and rounded to min, it can be out 2 min from real time.

You guys tell me the most N point the plane could be at 20:09 and that will be very close to 2 miles south of my primary zone..

If Cooper had jumped and immediately opened his parachute at the same time the placard separated from the airliner, they would have landed fairly close together.  Their descent rates would be about the same.

What if DBC left the plane 45 seconds after the placard? how far away? (South) or 1 minute later.

The airliner's ground speed was about three nautical miles per minute.  So if Cooper jumped one minute after the placard separated, and he immediately opened his parachute, he would have landed at least three nautical miles (3.45 statute miles) from the placard, other things being equal.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1874 on: May 14, 2017, 05:02:36 PM »
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Ok, so the money found in 1980 wasn't DBC cash, Cooper jumped before the 8:10 oscillation. the money was now hung up somewhere in the silver lake vicinity (on the stairs due to torn panels) and was released over the Columbia river waiting to be dredged up..?

Quote
On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1.

I'll try again, somebody tell me exactly where the plane was when DBC left it?

Use your timestamps, transcripts or whatever you need.

over the placard...

Actually, the placard separated from the airliner several miles southwest of where it was found.  This has been discussed numerous times here and on DropZone.

Cooper didn't jump for several more minutes after the placard separated which puts him several miles further down the flight track.

as has been said a million times in all discussions clear back to 2004, having the stairs down and leaving the plane produces physical evidence the crew would notice - unavoidable. The Test flight checked that out to clarify and confirm those physical facts. But, the test flight probably wasn't even necessary because as all skydivers have always reported including the Boeing Skydiving club and avionics group, you can't even open those stairs or play around with them without producing physical effects. Then the stairs slamming shut after weight is off them - produces more physical effects. Cooper was inside a cylinder moving at 200mph with a hole opened at the rear position of that cylinder. There were no physical effects reported until ______________ in the time frame. The position of the plane is separate. But all physical effects happened south of the placard drop zone.

This may not be the glamorous answer Flyjack wants, but it is the answer to the empiracle problem.

Moreover, as Kermit may tell us some day soon, people searched throughout the whole placard find area looking for 'anything' related to the Cooper hijacking. No one noticed or found anything additional to the placard, including the emergency exit door Flyjack claims must be there in the same area. I think people searched that area or kept their eyes open for anything new, for years following the well publicized placard find. It would not even surprise me to find out that the FBI went up and searched that area, or asked people to keep an eye out following the placard find. The placard find aroused a lot of public interest.       

Georger, I agree with that... 

Would DBC have drifted slightly NE after he left the plane?

TT timestamp is after communications and rounded to min, it can be out 2 min from real time.

You guys tell me the most N point the plane could be at 20:09 and that will be very close to 2 miles south of my primary zone..

If Cooper had jumped and immediately opened his parachute at the same time the placard separated from the airliner, they would have landed fairly close together.  Their descent rates would be about the same.

What if DBC left the plane 45 seconds after the placard? how far away? (South) or 1 minute later.

The airliner's ground speed was about three nautical miles per minute.  So if Cooper jumped one minute after the placard separated, and he immediately opened his parachute, he would have landed at least three nautical miles (3.45 statute miles) from the placard, other things being equal.

south of the placard find not north -correct?