Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1832279 times)

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1770 on: May 09, 2017, 12:30:36 AM »
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I'm look in my pilot manual and can't find any pics of the emergency system...the photo below shows the handle in a metal/plastic case. I don't see an access door?

well would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 12:33:12 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1771 on: May 09, 2017, 12:35:29 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1772 on: May 09, 2017, 12:37:36 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?

and, would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Likewise, did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 12:38:48 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1773 on: May 09, 2017, 12:51:57 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?

and, would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?

You didn't read my post and attachments on the subject, why the hell do I post anything new if nobody reads it.. then some of you trash or troll me..

I had very detailed operational docs re the main Airtair hydraulics vs the emergency system..

The words on the found placard = Emergency release system.. not main

early 727-100's in passenger config had it.. NORJAK falls into the age and config

DBC failed to operate the main system, outlined in my post.

here is a Safety brochure showing the location of small access door (I found one brochure that had the "emergency" text like the placard right on the access door)

labelled "ALTERNATE STAIR RELEASE" left of main release door
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 12:57:06 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1774 on: May 09, 2017, 01:00:05 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?

and, would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?

You didn't read my post and attachments on the subject, why the hell do I post anything new if nobody reads it.. then some of you trash or troll me..

I had very detailed operational docs re the main Airtair hydraulics vs the emergency system..

The words on the found placard = Emergency release system.. not main

early 727-100's in passenger config had it.. NORJAK falls into the age and config

DBC failed to operate the main system, outlined in my post.

here is a Safety brochure showing the location of small access door (I found one brochure that had the "emergency" text like the placard right on the access door)

labelled "ATERNATE STAIR RELEASE" left of main release door

FLYJACK,

The brochure states that some planes have the alternate stair release.  Georger and I have been asking for proof of your claim that the NWA airliner had this alternate stair release.  Where is that proof?
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1775 on: May 09, 2017, 01:43:02 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?

and, would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?

You didn't read my post and attachments on the subject, why the hell do I post anything new if nobody reads it.. then some of you trash or troll me..

I had very detailed operational docs re the main Airtair hydraulics vs the emergency system..

The words on the found placard = Emergency release system.. not main

early 727-100's in passenger config had it.. NORJAK falls into the age and config

DBC failed to operate the main system, outlined in my post.

here is a Safety brochure showing the location of small access door (I found one brochure that had the "emergency" text like the placard right on the access door)

labelled "ALTERNATE STAIR RELEASE" left of main release door

In fairness you are correct.  You did post this and I actually read it. I just didnt know if it applied ?

I dont see the words "Emergency release system.. not main" on the placard as you say. I see different words but "Access Door" is among those words - see attached.

I see "Emergency ?it Handle. Aft Airstair To Operate. Access Door, Pull On ?, ??, Lock Wire Will ??, When Handle Is Pulled. " Words are missing and incomplete on the torn placard.

-edit-   Im now wondering if Tina had ever used this emergency system before. She might not have even known about it? She was a junior grade stew.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 01:54:44 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1776 on: May 09, 2017, 02:15:10 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?

and, would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?

You didn't read my post and attachments on the subject, why the hell do I post anything new if nobody reads it.. then some of you trash or troll me..

I had very detailed operational docs re the main Airtair hydraulics vs the emergency system..

The words on the found placard = Emergency release system.. not main

early 727-100's in passenger config had it.. NORJAK falls into the age and config

DBC failed to operate the main system, outlined in my post.

here is a Safety brochure showing the location of small access door (I found one brochure that had the "emergency" text like the placard right on the access door)

labelled "ALTERNATE STAIR RELEASE" left of main release door

In fairness you are correct.  You did post this and I actually read it. I just didnt know if it applied ?

I dont see the words "Emergency release system.. not main" on the placard as you say. I see different words but "Access Door" is among those words - see attached.

I see "Emergency ?it Handle. Aft Airstair To Operate. Access Door, Pull On ?, ??, Lock Wire Will ??, When Handle Is Pulled. " Words are missing and incomplete on the torn placard.

-edit-   Im now wondering if Tina had ever used this emergency system before. She might not have even known about it? She was a junior grade stew.

My theory is, Tina showed DBC how to use the main system, he failed because you need to push a button on top of the lever. He went back up the stairs and talked to crew, returned and activated the Alternate Emergency system. Tina then noticed the RED light in panel indicating "unlocked Airstairs". He was gone.


Sorry, I wasn't quoting literal text, re: not main

If you read the entire placard it is clear that it can only be the alternate or emergency system, not the main.

alternate = emergency exit
alternate = pull handle, main push lever
alternate = breaks locks, main does not

It says.
EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE
AFT AIRSTAIR
TO OPERATE
OPEN ACCESS DOOR. PULL ON RED
HANDLE. LOCK WIRE WILL BREAK
WHEN HANDLE IS PULLED

After I did my research, Shutter alluded to "Homined" at websleuths and his posts confirmed what I found. He also had detailed knowledge of the damage caused by using the emergency system.


Homined..
"When the stairs would not drop when released, Coop may well have used some knowledge of the system to come to the final solution. He used the air-operated emergency extension system to "blow" the stair open. This is the system the "Toutle" placard related to. It's possible Coop figured out on his own to use the emergency extension system and may have known of its existence and capabilities ahead of time."
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1777 on: May 09, 2017, 02:26:04 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?

and, would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?

You didn't read my post and attachments on the subject, why the hell do I post anything new if nobody reads it.. then some of you trash or troll me..

I had very detailed operational docs re the main Airtair hydraulics vs the emergency system..

The words on the found placard = Emergency release system.. not main

early 727-100's in passenger config had it.. NORJAK falls into the age and config

DBC failed to operate the main system, outlined in my post.

here is a Safety brochure showing the location of small access door (I found one brochure that had the "emergency" text like the placard right on the access door)

labelled "ALTERNATE STAIR RELEASE" left of main release door

In fairness you are correct.  You did post this and I actually read it. I just didnt know if it applied ?

I dont see the words "Emergency release system.. not main" on the placard as you say. I see different words but "Access Door" is among those words - see attached.

I see "Emergency ?it Handle. Aft Airstair To Operate. Access Door, Pull On ?, ??, Lock Wire Will ??, When Handle Is Pulled. " Words are missing and incomplete on the torn placard.

-edit-   Im now wondering if Tina had ever used this emergency system before. She might not have even known about it? She was a junior grade stew.

My theory is, Tina showed DBC how to use the main system, he failed because you need to push a button on top of the lever. He went back up the stairs and talked to crew, returned and activated the Alternate Emergency system. Tina then noticed the RED light in panel indicating "unlocked Airstairs". He was gone.


Sorry, I wasn't quoting literal text, re: not main

If you read the entire placard it is clear that it can only be the alternate or emergency system, not the main.

alternate = emergency exit
alternate = pull handle, main push lever
alternate = breaks locks, main does not

It says.
EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE
AFT AIRSTAIR
TO OPERATE
OPEN ACCESS DOOR. PULL ON RED
HANDLE. LOCK WIRE WILL BREAK
WHEN HANDLE IS PULLED

After I did my research, Shutter alluded to "Homined" at websleuths and his posts confirmed what I found. He also had detailed knowledge of the damage caused by using the emergency system.


Homined..
"When the stairs would not drop when released, Coop may well have used some knowledge of the system to come to the final solution. He used the air-operated emergency extension system to "blow" the stair open. This is the system the "Toutle" placard related to. It's possible Coop figured out on his own to use the emergency extension system and may have known of its existence and capabilities ahead of time."

I guess an obvious question is: did the Test Group note the missing panel? Is it on the ground somewhere or was it still on the plane at Reno ?

Whatever the case this is good work! I now remember Hominid's posts about this.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:29:20 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1778 on: May 09, 2017, 02:55:24 AM »
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Since this " emergency door " is all new to me, it would be helpful if there was,a photo of it.

I have tried to find an actual image but haven't been successful probably because the emergency release was only in some early 727-100's. I found a few graphical "representations" in safety brochures and it appears to be slightly larger than the placard with finger holes to pull from the wall, it completely detached so no hinges. Possibly 5 rivets or holes where the placard attached.

Should be (whitish) thin plastic about 10"x10" +/- with finger holes at the top, might have the other 1/4 of the placard still attached. Take a plastic bag, if you see anything that is close, mark your location. Long shot but never know.

FLYJACK,

As has been pointed out previously, the hijacked NWA airliner was a Boeing 727-051 model.  The Boeing 727-100 models came later.

sorry Robert99, wrong.. again,,,   I am really worried about you guys.

The 727-051 was the model designation, it was a 727-100 series. In fact the very first 727 was a 727-100..

727-100
The first 727-100 (N7001U) flew on February 9, 1963[30] and FAA type approval was awarded on December 24 of that year, with initial delivery to United Airlines on October 29, 1963, to allow pilot training to commence. The first 727 passenger service was flown by Eastern Air Lines on February 1, 1964, between Miami, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia.


I have detailed info/attachments on the Airtsiars in a post.. the secondary "emergency release" system is not in the manuals, it seemed to be an option on some earlier configurations.

FLYJACK,

The first 727 (N7001U) was delivered to United Airlines as a 727-022 model.  At the introduction of the stretched 727-200, the original short version was retroactively referred to as the 727-100.

Regardless of the actual model designation, where is your evidence that the NWA 727-051 had the door that you have been claiming?

and, would the placard have been affixed to this emergency system panel, as suggested? wherever the panel is ?

Did Cooper's plane have this system and panel? Proof?

You didn't read my post and attachments on the subject, why the hell do I post anything new if nobody reads it.. then some of you trash or troll me..

I had very detailed operational docs re the main Airtair hydraulics vs the emergency system..

The words on the found placard = Emergency release system.. not main

early 727-100's in passenger config had it.. NORJAK falls into the age and config

DBC failed to operate the main system, outlined in my post.

here is a Safety brochure showing the location of small access door (I found one brochure that had the "emergency" text like the placard right on the access door)

labelled "ALTERNATE STAIR RELEASE" left of main release door

In fairness you are correct.  You did post this and I actually read it. I just didnt know if it applied ?

I dont see the words "Emergency release system.. not main" on the placard as you say. I see different words but "Access Door" is among those words - see attached.

I see "Emergency ?it Handle. Aft Airstair To Operate. Access Door, Pull On ?, ??, Lock Wire Will ??, When Handle Is Pulled. " Words are missing and incomplete on the torn placard.

-edit-   Im now wondering if Tina had ever used this emergency system before. She might not have even known about it? She was a junior grade stew.

My theory is, Tina showed DBC how to use the main system, he failed because you need to push a button on top of the lever. He went back up the stairs and talked to crew, returned and activated the Alternate Emergency system. Tina then noticed the RED light in panel indicating "unlocked Airstairs". He was gone.


Sorry, I wasn't quoting literal text, re: not main

If you read the entire placard it is clear that it can only be the alternate or emergency system, not the main.

alternate = emergency exit
alternate = pull handle, main push lever
alternate = breaks locks, main does not

It says.
EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE
AFT AIRSTAIR
TO OPERATE
OPEN ACCESS DOOR. PULL ON RED
HANDLE. LOCK WIRE WILL BREAK
WHEN HANDLE IS PULLED

After I did my research, Shutter alluded to "Homined" at websleuths and his posts confirmed what I found. He also had detailed knowledge of the damage caused by using the emergency system.


Homined..
"When the stairs would not drop when released, Coop may well have used some knowledge of the system to come to the final solution. He used the air-operated emergency extension system to "blow" the stair open. This is the system the "Toutle" placard related to. It's possible Coop figured out on his own to use the emergency extension system and may have known of its existence and capabilities ahead of time."

I guess an obvious question is: did the Test Group note the missing panel? Is it on the ground somewhere or was it still on the plane at Reno ?

Whatever the case this is good work! I now remember Hominid's posts about this.

When you pull that access door/panel it becomes completely detached unlike the main. It is reasonable to assume it went out with the placard attached by 5 rivets/screws. The descent probably broke off 3/4 of the Placard from the access door.

This may be something they are withholding, only the hijacker would know that he used the Alternate Emergency system and not the main control.. until now.

I wonder if anybody ever went out and looked for the access door near the placard location.. it could have landed close by though somebody may have found it but never realized what it was.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1779 on: May 09, 2017, 10:57:51 AM »
An interesting take-away,

DBC only got out the Airstairs because that plane was equipped with the Alternate Emergency Release. He failed to operate the main.

Later planes new were not so equipped and at some point the Cooper vane was added.

The Cooper vane would not cancel the Alternate Emergency Airstairs release, so the FBI and airline had a strong motive to keep Cooper's use of the Alternate Emergency Airstairs quiet.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1780 on: May 09, 2017, 01:02:26 PM »
Flyjack wrote: "The Cooper vane would not cancel the Alternate Emergency Airstairs release..."

Please explain further. The vane is a physical block. Unless the emergency system could rip the vane off, how could the vane not stop any and every type of stair deployment?

The DC 9-21 I jumped from in 2006 had a working Cooper Vane but since we had removed the stairs the vane didn't block anything.

Hominid is Mr. Stairs. He knows the 727 door and stair systems really well.

377
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1781 on: May 09, 2017, 01:55:15 PM »
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Flyjack wrote: "The Cooper vane would not cancel the Alternate Emergency Airstairs release..."

Please explain further. The vane is a physical block. Unless the emergency system could rip the vane off, how could the vane not stop any and every type of stair deployment?

The DC 9-21 I jumped from in 2006 had a working Cooper Vane but since we had removed the stairs the vane didn't block anything.

Hominid is Mr. Stairs. He knows the 727 door and stair systems really well.

377

Applying Alternate Emergency Airstairs system breaks the mechanical mechanism to allow the stairs to just fall loose, having the vane hold the stairs up in an emergency crash situation would render them useless as an emergency system.

I don't really know how the limited number of 727's with both main and Alternate Emergency Systems were equipped with the Cooper Vane, but I just find it interesting that DBC might have halted the future use of the Alt Emergency system. If the Cooper vane stopped the Emergency System it wouldn't function as an Emergency System. Since that system is never publicly mentioned I assume it was intentional to keep it quiet. Perhaps the Cooper vane wasn't used on every 727? I don't know, I haven't looked deep into it as it is not really relevant to NORJAK.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1782 on: May 09, 2017, 03:31:05 PM »
How did all of the copycats get out of the back of the 727?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1783 on: May 09, 2017, 04:21:41 PM »
This is a good question for Robb Heady. I'll ask him.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1784 on: May 09, 2017, 04:26:17 PM »
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This is a good question for Robb Heady. I'll ask him.

I was just going to post that, but forgot his name lol  O0