Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1832236 times)

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1740 on: May 06, 2017, 04:20:32 PM »
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Good luck, dude.

Billy didn't even give me the courtesy of a return phone call when I offered to send him a free book.

I know, a real long shot but if he recognized the image that might help convince the FBI to check DNA/prints. (along with other circumstantial stuff)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1741 on: May 06, 2017, 04:53:10 PM »
Quote
I know, a real long shot but if he recognized the image that might help convince the FBI to check DNA/prints. (along with other circumstantial stuff)

You could have the twin of Cooper's sketch, it's not going to get them to look into anything other than money, or the parachute used. they have went down that road too many times....
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1742 on: May 06, 2017, 06:34:07 PM »
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Quote
I know, a real long shot but if he recognized the image that might help convince the FBI to check DNA/prints. (along with other circumstantial stuff)

You could have the twin of Cooper's sketch, it's not going to get them to look into anything other than money, or the parachute used. they have went down that road too many times....

I have a plan and so much more than just the sketch...  but a witness confirming a suspect/sketch would be better.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 06:35:15 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1743 on: May 06, 2017, 06:45:23 PM »
Plenty of people in the past have had people backup the story...that doesn't mean he was Cooper. you need hard physical evidence to raise an eyebrow...
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1744 on: May 06, 2017, 08:18:06 PM »
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Plenty of people in the past have had people backup the story...that doesn't mean he was Cooper. you need hard physical evidence to raise an eyebrow...

Witnesses never confirmed anyone..

If the bar is lifted above that, this case never gets solved and we should all go look for Forrest Fenn's treasure.

 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1745 on: May 06, 2017, 10:49:38 PM »
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From Tom Kate's particle conclusions..
"Given pure titanium with embedded stainless steel, spiral chips made from aluminum and other exotic metals, gives a "best fit" indication that Cooper came from or regularly visited a metal fabrication facility. These types of materials are known specifically for their corrosion resistance and commonly used in highly corrosive environments, such as chemical factories. "

Isn't that an astronomical coincidence by Gunther/Clara, on Dan LeClair who supposedly worked as an industrial chemicals salesman.  If her story was bullshit, well, those odds are one for the books...

If you want to believe the findings of a play scientist, aka Tom Kaye, then you might be in trouble.  TK is an amateur scientist, a hobbyist, he holds no degree in science, he looks for dinosaur bones and he sold paintball stuff.  That's it.  How does that qualify him to scientifically assess anything?  His conclusions have been absurdly wimpy at times.  His retractions are more numerous than Bill Clinton's extramarital affairs.  This pure titanium v. alloy titanium was discussed at length previously.  Once again, Tom Kaye got caught with his pants down.  Pure titanium was possible afterall, not just the alloy, as he claimed.  I think Bob Sailshaw -- a retired Boeing engineer -- had some good information to share about this. 

Also, Shutter mentioned that a friend of 30 years told him the elements found on the tie surely came from the medical profession.  Shutter mentioned that recently in a short post.  How about the medical profession v. chemical factory? 

You might want to review some of the DropZone discussions about some of the things you bring up.  Most of the issues you bring up have already been discussed at length -- many times over.
MeyerLouie
 

Offline John S

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1746 on: May 07, 2017, 01:58:21 PM »
How did Cooper survive the walk out?

When Cooper jumped, he got cold and wet. He had to get warm and dry. And he had to protect his feet. How did Cooper do that? I mean plausibly, of course, how “could” Cooper have done that?

I realize I am entering into the middle of a very long and detailed analysis of the Cooper case, so I don’t know how thoroughly this has already been covered in the past. And again, please, I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes. I’m just asking a question about something that I simply don’t understand about the Cooper case. How did Cooper survive the walk out?

I’ve seen many arguments about how Cooper could have survived the jump. In fact that seems to be a central focus of many heated arguments.

But I’ve never seen a single argument explaining how Cooper could have survived the walk out. I’ve even seen survivalists in Cooper documentaries insist that, “I’m a tough guy, and I could survive out in these woods indefinitely!”  You mean cold, wet and barefoot? Well, no, no one ever actually asserts that.

Cooper could have worn some sort of thermal underwear discretely beneath his business suit, I suppose. That would delay the onset of hypothermia. But for how long, realistically?  How long could a normal human being continue to walk around in the woods that way? I mean, even if Cooper had jumped with a 20-pound bag of Snickers bars, eventually his own body heat is simply going to give out, isn’t it?

It is also my understanding that Cooper was only wearing slip-on loafers at the time of the jump. I don’t see how those loafers managed to stay on Cooper’s feet in a 200 mile-an-hour exit-wind blast. But suppose the loafers miraculously did stay on, and Cooper actually managed to land while still wearing them.

The problem is, Cooper still lands somewhere in the mud. And the suction of that mud is going to try to pull those loafers right off his feet with every step he takes. I don’t see how Cooper makes any real progress in trying to walk that way, if indeed Cooper could still walk at all.

If his loafers did come off during the jump, then Cooper arrived on the ground virtually barefoot, wearing at most a thin pair of freezing-wet socks. He would still be trying to walk out through suctioning mud. I don’t see how any normal human being could continue to walk around that way for any survivable length of time. In rough, wet, muddy terrain wouldn’t any normal human being’s legs go numb fairly quickly, and their feet get pretty badly lacerated and even punctured in fairly short order? If your legs get cold and numb enough, they simply don’t work anymore, no matter how many Snickers bars you eat. So how does Cooper keep walking?

That is my question for the Forum. Cold, wet and either barefoot or wearing slip-on loafers, how does Cooper manage to survive the walk out through all of that freezing-cold, suctioning mud?

Thank you, and best wishes,  - John S.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1747 on: May 07, 2017, 02:22:01 PM »
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How did Cooper survive the walk out?

When Cooper jumped, he got cold and wet. He had to get warm and dry. And he had to protect his feet. How did Cooper do that? I mean plausibly, of course, how “could” Cooper have done that?

I realize I am entering into the middle of a very long and detailed analysis of the Cooper case, so I don’t know how thoroughly this has already been covered in the past. And again, please, I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes. I’m just asking a question about something that I simply don’t understand about the Cooper case. How did Cooper survive the walk out?

I’ve seen many arguments about how Cooper could have survived the jump. In fact that seems to be a central focus of many heated arguments.

But I’ve never seen a single argument explaining how Cooper could have survived the walk out. I’ve even seen survivalists in Cooper documentaries insist that, “I’m a tough guy, and I could survive out in these woods indefinitely!”  You mean cold, wet and barefoot? Well, no, no one ever actually asserts that.

Cooper could have worn some sort of thermal underwear discretely beneath his business suit, I suppose. That would delay the onset of hypothermia. But for how long, realistically?  How long could a normal human being continue to walk around in the woods that way? I mean, even if Cooper had jumped with a 20-pound bag of Snickers bars, eventually his own body heat is simply going to give out, isn’t it?

It is also my understanding that Cooper was only wearing slip-on loafers at the time of the jump. I don’t see how those loafers managed to stay on Cooper’s feet in a 200 mile-an-hour exit-wind blast. But suppose the loafers miraculously did stay on, and Cooper actually managed to land while still wearing them.

The problem is, Cooper still lands somewhere in the mud. And the suction of that mud is going to try to pull those loafers right off his feet with every step he takes. I don’t see how Cooper makes any real progress in trying to walk that way, if indeed Cooper could still walk at all.

If his loafers did come off during the jump, then Cooper arrived on the ground virtually barefoot, wearing at most a thin pair of freezing-wet socks. He would still be trying to walk out through suctioning mud. I don’t see how any normal human being could continue to walk around that way for any survivable length of time. In rough, wet, muddy terrain wouldn’t any normal human being’s legs go numb fairly quickly, and their feet get pretty badly lacerated and even punctured in fairly short order? If your legs get cold and numb enough, they simply don’t work anymore, no matter how many Snickers bars you eat. So how does Cooper keep walking?

That is my question for the Forum. Cold, wet and either barefoot or wearing slip-on loafers, how does Cooper manage to survive the walk out through all of that freezing-cold, suctioning mud?

Thank you, and best wishes,  - John S.

John S.

I agree, I looked seriously at the walk out theory a few years ago and determined it to be an extremely low probability for several reasons.

Throwing out and tossing around ideas is part of the process, it is up to you as an individual to evaluate them rather than engage in groupthink. New ideas or facts can change previous thinking. Since the case isn't solved, everything is legitimate, just some things are more legitimate than others.

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1748 on: May 07, 2017, 05:23:33 PM »
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How did Cooper survive the walk out?

When Cooper jumped, he got cold and wet. He had to get warm and dry. And he had to protect his feet. How did Cooper do that? I mean plausibly, of course, how “could” Cooper have done that?

I realize I am entering into the middle of a very long and detailed analysis of the Cooper case, so I don’t know how thoroughly this has already been covered in the past....



Yes, John, there has been a significant amount of discussion and analysis of what Cooper landed into, and how he got out of it.

First, shoes. The question of how loafers could have stayed on his feet with 200-mph winds, etc., has been talked about endlessly. As you have read in my book, I have presented the range of opinions. For me, I go with Alan MacArthur, the prez of the Boeing skydiving club, who says that he has successfully jumped in all kinds of weather, even snow, and in all kinds of gear, including flip-flops. He sees no problem with Cooper's shoes staying on his feet.

My favorite anecdotal skydiving opinion comes from our own 377 who famously described how a group of New Zealander women jumped naked....

Note, of course there is a lot more wind pressure at 200 mph than 140 or whatever it is that most skydivers jump into, but at some point wind is wind, so I don't put a lot of weight on these kinds of concerns.

As for landing in mud and having his shoes sucked off his feet...hmmm. Actually, after spending lots of time in the PNW hunting in the rain and snow along the flanks of Mount Rainier, I actually saw very little mud. Mud in the PNW, in truth, is really a function of human development - road and home construction, etc. - or river flooding.

Yes, being wet and cold is a toughie. But was Cooper wet and cold for a long time? Walking eight hours to T-Bar with a Steinthaul poncho wrapped around him along the railroad tracks? Hmmm, still wet and cold? Warmed up a little? Depends on the size of his grudge, I say.

Or did Coop have an extraction team waiting for him with warm undies and hot cocoa? 

Or did Coop stash getaway cars every five miles up and down the I-5 corridor on US Forest roads and spent the next six months retrieving them?

Lots of possibilities. What doesn't change is the perspective of the analyzer: does one think Cooper made it? Does one WANT Cooper to have made it? That dynamic really drives the bus of these discussions, imho.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 05:27:13 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1749 on: May 07, 2017, 05:55:17 PM »
I commented here a little while back about this. Answer is simple to me. I've hunted Elk in November in the Eagle Cap area of Eastern Oregon. We camped at shelter cabin which has been there for years. It's been long abandoned and had no windows or heat but protected us from the wind and rain to a degree. Elevation was over 8,000 ft and I shot my Elk at over 9,000 ft elevation. Hurricane Creek which was right alongside our trail was freezing up. When my hunting buddy and I with our 2 horses arrived at the 5,000 ft elevation,we came across a camp with several guides. When we mentioned how cold it was to them, they said the temperature was -5 at 5,000 ft. There couldn't even believe how cold it was at 9,000 ft. Why did we have no problem hunting for 4 days ? Simply answer .... wool ! Wool socks, wool underwear,"wool gloves, wool hat, wool coat. Wool keeps you warm even when you get wet.
I have lots of photos of this trip. The 2 elk were frozen so solid that my butcher friend had to cut it up in his butcher shop with their saws. Sorry to say this about the FBI but this was a embarrassing result for them and they want to let us know Cooper died ! They have exaggerated the weather etc to make sure most people believe that. He could easily have died in the jump but I doubt he died because of the weather. JMHO
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1750 on: May 07, 2017, 07:34:09 PM »
I think some of the weather temps can be blamed on weather aloft, or at 10,000 feet. they reported -7 degree's celcius. no snow while the plane flew over, temps on the ground much higher than 10,000. the temps seem to play right along with the weather reports...all over the place..it's possible over the years they mixed in the next day's weather with the evening of November 24, 1971...
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1751 on: May 08, 2017, 12:22:13 AM »
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I think some of the weather temps can be blamed on weather aloft, or at 10,000 feet. they reported -7 degree's celcius. no snow while the plane flew over, temps on the ground much higher than 10,000. the temps seem to play right along with the weather reports...all over the place..it's possible over the years they mixed in the next day's weather with the evening of November 24, 1971...

The FBI seems to have run a campaign of confusion and disinformation citing -7 as one example, when in fact it was -7 Celsius (not Fahrenheit) and that was the temp aloft, not at ground level anywhere in the projected LZ at the time. (-7C = 19.4F) Shoes came off. Jaw got displaced when money bag tied around his waste flew up and knocked him out cold. His arms were pulled out of their sockets. (His members were eaten off by a grisly bears when he landed! Bears wait for things to fall from the sky and pounce and those things and eat them, immediately!) All of these accounts and projections were countered and rebutted by experts in the newspapers almost as fast as the FBI could write the scripts! Some of these projections actually came from the Boeing Sky Diving Club members.

On the other hand the FBI had asked for and received advice on what 'might have happened' from entities like the Boeing Sky Diving club. I talked to Dick P. on that club and he told me their assessment was serious and very negative in Cooper's regard immediately after the hijacking. Then one member of the Boeing club dissented and granted an interview. Dick said the whole thing became a circus of conflicting advice. Then Boeing got serious and shifted their focus on how to prevent hijackings of this type in the future - the "Cooper Vane" resulted.

I have a hard time believing Cooper didn't know his shoes (as described) were a problem so he took some step to remedy that weakness, if the report about his shoes is correct?. Moreover there is such a variety of elevations and terrain represented in the NWA LZ (probability) map, it is difficult to pin down what conditions he actually had to deal with, dead or alive. If he lived Im willing to bet he made tracks and didn't spend much time in any one place until he was as far away as possible. His whole plan and modus operendum point to that.

I think there are a lot of things that point to Cooper having strong survival instincts (and perhaps no small amount of survival knowledge). I think the FBI suspected that and it irked them no end! I mean this was no kid fresh from an SDS meeting at the Lemon Lounge on the U of Indiana campus. This guy had years of life and experience of some kind under his belt initiating a serious crime willing to jump from a jet doing 200mph into the night with $200k and his grudge behind him. I wouldnt be at all surprised to know he was armed. This guy was no Richard McCoy or Kenny Christiansen, but a serious opportunist set on a positive outcome !        :))

 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 12:52:55 AM by georger »
 
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1752 on: May 08, 2017, 01:38:10 AM »
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I commented here a little while back about this. Answer is simple to me. I've hunted Elk in November in the Eagle Cap area of Eastern Oregon. We camped at shelter cabin which has been there for years. It's been long abandoned and had no windows or heat but protected us from the wind and rain to a degree. Elevation was over 8,000 ft and I shot my Elk at over 9,000 ft elevation. Hurricane Creek which was right alongside our trail was freezing up. When my hunting buddy and I with our 2 horses arrived at the 5,000 ft elevation,we came across a camp with several guides. When we mentioned how cold it was to them, they said the temperature was -5 at 5,000 ft. There couldn't even believe how cold it was at 9,000 ft. Why did we have no problem hunting for 4 days ? Simply answer .... wool ! Wool socks, wool underwear,"wool gloves, wool hat, wool coat. Wool keeps you warm even when you get wet.
I have lots of photos of this trip. The 2 elk were frozen so solid that my butcher friend had to cut it up in his butcher shop with their saws. Sorry to say this about the FBI but this was a embarrassing result for them and they want to let us know Cooper died ! They have exaggerated the weather etc to make sure most people believe that. He could easily have died in the jump but I doubt he died because of the weather. JMHO

Kermit, are you still planning on going to the placard site and poking around?
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1753 on: May 08, 2017, 02:01:48 AM »
Yes it is still my intention to go up to the placard find location. I have been recovering from a little bug and awaiting better weather which seems to be finally heading our way here in Washington. I will be accompanying Meyer on his Tina Bar project soon also hopefully.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1754 on: May 08, 2017, 02:09:27 AM »
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Yes it is still my intention to go up to the placard find location. I have been recovering from a little bug and awaiting better weather which seems to be finally heading our way here in Washington. I will be accompanying Meyer on his Tina Bar project soon also hopefully.

Good. Best of luck with the whole thing.  Thanks!  :)