Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1832147 times)

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1680 on: May 02, 2017, 03:13:35 PM »
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Since I'm planning on going to the site of the placard find very soon, I really want to know IF there is,something else out there ! Seems kinda puzzling that the FBI and the searches have been looking for Cooper, the parachute, the Money,shoes, clothing, briefcase etc but I've never heard anything about this ! Why no mention ? Excuse me for being skeptical but is there any proof ?

Proof will be when you find that "emergency" door/panel with finger holes in it near the found Placard co-ords, but read my comprehensive post and all the attachments describing the Airstair operation...

that specific placard came from a detachable access door..
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1681 on: May 02, 2017, 03:15:02 PM »
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Since I'm planning on going to the site of the placard find very soon, I really want to know IF there is,something else out there ! Seems kinda puzzling that the FBI and the searches have been looking for Cooper, the parachute, the Money,shoes, clothing, briefcase etc but I've never heard anything about this ! Why no mention ? Excuse me for being skeptical but is there any proof ?

Proof will be when you find that "emergency" door/panel with finger holes in it near the found Placard co-ords, but read my comprehensive post and all the attachments describing the Airstair operation...

that specific placard came from a detachable access door..

calm down - give the world time to adjust to your rapid fire revelations, Einstein!
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1682 on: May 02, 2017, 03:19:32 PM »
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two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.   

Here it is, the drop test side panel is damaged, ripped NOT removed... for photographic reasons, completely false.



Flyjack,

If your photograph was taken AFTER the FBI sled tests, why does the cloth modesty panel on the right side appear to be in pristine condition?  And if the modesty panel on the left side was damaged in flight, why aren't there fragments of the panel still on its supporting structure?

My guess is that your photograph was taken as the FBI tests were being planned.

Robert99,

For the record I do have respect for you and your insights,

but look carefully at the panels. Both side have in flight damage to them. The near one far worse. They were not removed for in flight test photographs.

The Airstair operation for the test was not exactly the same as the NORJAK event. The "emergency" Airstair created a "free fall", the test would have been more of a controlled event.

You keep saying DROP TEST PHOTO but are you talking about the condition of the side panels when N467US landed at Reno ? You have me totally confused!

In any event here is a photo of the DROP TEST taken by the chase plane. The panels look intact to me?

You are using a photo from Gray's book - tell us the date of Gray's photo: What day was the photo taken? ?  O0

Don't know what to tell you, compare the condition of the side panels from Norjak (Reno) to the drop test. The damage is completely different but make your own judgement. I posted a side by side comparison attachment somewhere.

 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1683 on: May 02, 2017, 03:23:09 PM »
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two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.   

Here it is, the drop test side panel is damaged, ripped NOT removed... for photographic reasons, completely false.



Flyjack,

If your photograph was taken AFTER the FBI sled tests, why does the cloth modesty panel on the right side appear to be in pristine condition?  And if the modesty panel on the left side was damaged in flight, why aren't there fragments of the panel still on its supporting structure?

My guess is that your photograph was taken as the FBI tests were being planned.

Robert99,

For the record I do have respect for you and your insights,

but look carefully at the panels. Both side have in flight damage to them. The near one far worse. They were not removed for in flight test photographs.

The Airstair operation for the test was not exactly the same as the NORJAK event. The "emergency" Airstair created a "free fall", the test would have been more of a controlled event.

You keep saying DROP TEST PHOTO but are you talking about the condition of the side panels when N467US landed at Reno ? You have me totally confused!

In any event here is a photo of the DROP TEST taken by the chase plane. The panels look intact to me?

You are using a photo from Gray's book - tell us the date of Gray's photo: What day was the photo taken? ?  O0

Don't know what to tell you, compare the condition of the side panels from Norjak (Reno) to the drop test. The damage is completely different but make your own judgement. I posted a side by side comparison attachment somewhere.

well for one thing you are using Geof's Gray's photo of the stairs date unknown referring to it both as a photo after DROP TEST and/or a photo at Reno before the drop test?

Tell us what the date of your photo is!? Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! 

I just posted a photo of N467US taken during the drop test by the chase plane and the side panels look fully in tact.

So again, what is the date of the Geof Gray photo you keep posting?  I cant frankly see that the drop test has anything to do with your theory that the brief case caused side panel damage during Cooper's jump the day before the DROP TEST was even conducted? Whats the connection between the DROP TEST you keep citing and the jump brief case scenario?  :))   

back to regular programming.  :))
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 03:30:09 PM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1684 on: May 02, 2017, 03:35:57 PM »
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two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.   

Here it is, the drop test side panel is damaged, ripped NOT removed... for photographic reasons, completely false.



Flyjack,

If your photograph was taken AFTER the FBI sled tests, why does the cloth modesty panel on the right side appear to be in pristine condition?  And if the modesty panel on the left side was damaged in flight, why aren't there fragments of the panel still on its supporting structure?

My guess is that your photograph was taken as the FBI tests were being planned.

Robert99,

For the record I do have respect for you and your insights,

but look carefully at the panels. Both side have in flight damage to them. The near one far worse. They were not removed for in flight test photographs.

The Airstair operation for the test was not exactly the same as the NORJAK event. The "emergency" Airstair created a "free fall", the test would have been more of a controlled event.

You keep saying DROP TEST PHOTO but are you talking about the condition of the side panels when N467US landed at Reno ? You have me totally confused!

In any event here is a photo of the DROP TEST taken by the chase plane. The panels look intact to me?

You are using a photo from Gray's book - tell us the date of Gray's photo: What day was the photo taken? ?  O0

Don't know what to tell you, compare the condition of the side panels from Norjak (Reno) to the drop test. The damage is completely different but make your own judgement. I posted a side by side comparison attachment somewhere.

well for one thing you are using Geof's Gray's photo of the stairs date unknown referring to it both as a photo after DROP TEST and/or a photo at Reno before the drop test?

Tell us what the date of your photo is!? Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

You don't need the date, the photo is backed up by the second one with the agents,,, DUHHH.

Do you actually read and view the attachments...

The damage to the panels is completely different, the NORJAK (Reno) panels have vertical and horizontal tears near the bottom, that is consistent with a sharp internal impact...  like a loose briefcase
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 03:41:15 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1685 on: May 02, 2017, 03:47:23 PM »
here is what the stairs looked like after the crew left the plane.....
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1686 on: May 02, 2017, 03:58:25 PM »
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here is what the stairs looked like after the crew left the plane.....

That isn't a good pic, I have a higher res image and the tears in the panels are sharp pointed vertical and horizontal angled.. what you'd get from sharp internal impacts. It isn't proof but it is suggestive.

check 1:22 in this vid

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FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1687 on: May 02, 2017, 04:10:03 PM »
The image of the plane on the ground with the damaged panels from the FBI sled drop test is labelled "19"..

The image of the FBI sled drop from inside the plane during the test with intact panels is labelled "12"..

19 comes after 12... those damaged drop test panels were AFTER the test

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1688 on: May 02, 2017, 05:46:43 PM »
Dummy Chute Hypothesis

John S. has asked me to post his hypothesis on the use of the dummy chute to bounce the stairs downward, in the vicinity of Ariel, as a deception for his later exit over Woodburn, Oregon via squidding off the top step.

This thread seems like a good place to put this, even if the commentary between Flyjack and others is hot and heavy on the stairs at present.

****************************
Greetings, everyone.  This is my first post here. I was invited to the forum by Bruce A. Smith. I recently read his book, “DB Cooper and the FBI,” and was very impressed with it. I contacted him by email, and sent him some of my own thoughts about the Cooper case. He looked them over, and cordially suggested that I join the DBC Forum and post some of that information here so that others could consider it and discuss it.

Based largely on information I found in Smith’s book, I came to the conclusion that a major clue about the Cooper case might have been largely overlooked - the dummy parachute. Everyone seems to know about it, but no one seems to give it much thought. Here are my thoughts on it. I offer this theory to the Forum for your consideration.

The dummy parachute - Was it used as a projectile to simulate a jump?

As a working premise, I make the following assumptions:

Cooper was a commando. All of his movements were planned, rehearsed and practiced ahead of time. He knew exactly what he was doing. He did the skyjacking as any commando would do a professional job.

My Theory - The dummy parachute might have been used as a projectile to simulate a jump:

Cooper might have used the dummy parachute as a heavy projectile to simulate a jump, before he made his real jump. The purpose would have been to put time and distance between Cooper and his pursuers. A short while later in the flight, Cooper made his real jump.  This theory applies to any unopened parachute - whether dummy or real.

My reasoning in support of this theory:

The so-called “dummy parachute” didn’t arrive in Reno. That implies Cooper used it for some purpose, and in the process of using it, he tossed it out of the plane. Why? How could the dummy parachute possibly be used by a commando doing a skyjacking job, and why was there a need to throw it out of the airplane in the process?

I personally can’t think of any practical use for an unopened parachute, dummy or real, in tossing it out of an airplane - except one.  It could be used to “bash” into something directly below it.

Cooper could have deliberately lobbed it at a target just outside the airplane, and used the weight of the parachute for impact against that target. The only target available to Cooper was the partially-lowered aft-staircase.

Cooper could have lobbed the unopened parachute in a high arc outward and then down toward the bottom of the lowered staircase. The parachute weighed about 20 pounds. For each foot it drops, it would impact the staircase below it with 20 foot-pounds of force. If Cooper lobbed it upwards 8 feet (2 feet above his head)  and the bottom of the stairs was down 4 feet, it would impact the bottom of the staircase with 240 foot-pounds of force. That’s enough impact force to bounce the stairway downward, considerably.

The sudden impact on the bottom end of the stairway would cause a “dip” in the tail section of the plane. A “dip” was duly noted by the pilots and crew of Flight 305. The pilot “trimmed” the flight path to correct for this sudden movement in the tail section of the plane.

But the crew also noticed something else around this time. The cabin pressure stabilized momentarily, and they interpreted that to mean that the aft-staircase had rebounded hard enough to slam shut.

The combination of the “dip” and the aft-staircase slamming shut on a rebound, convinced the crew that Cooper had probably jumped at that time and location - 8:13 pm over southern Washington. Within a short time, this version of the jump had become almost gospel with the public.

But this version of the Cooper jump is based entirely on the assumption that the crew on Flight 305 interpreted the data they witnessed correctly.

I’m going to challenge that basic assumption. I believe the southern Washington jump might actually have instead been a Cooper-created jump-simulation, intended to throw off his pursuers. Cooper may have used the dummy parachute as a heavy projectile to bash down onto the bottom end of the aft-staircase, in order to simulate a jump. If Cooper was a commando and he wanted to simulate a jump, then one of the easiest, low-tech ways he could do that would be to bounce a heavy object off the aft-staircase.

That action would dip the tail end of the plane, and then rebound the staircase rather hard. Whatever happened at 8:13 pm did cause the staircase to rebound hard enough that it actually slammed shut.

Now oddly enough, if this is what really happened, then Cooper may have actually taken it a bit too far.

From what I have seen on a few YouTube videos, people who jump off of the aft-staircase of a 727 do not create enough downward force to cause the aft-staircase to rebound that violently. Yes, it rebounds, but - by appearances - not enough to slam shut.

It is my understanding that reenactments have been done that show Cooper could have successfully jumped off the lower end of the staircase of a 727.  But did these reenactments also show that the staircase rebounded so violently that it actually slammed shut? I don’t know the answer.

But if the reenactments show that the staircase doesn’t rebound enough to slam shut, then that might be considered evidence that the significant “dip” and the change in air pressure felt by the crew of Flight 305 were not caused by a real jump. If that is true, then Cooper may have lobbed the dummy parachute just a bit too hard for simulating a real jump off of a 727.

Something heavy did go out the door of Flight 305 at 8:13 pm over southern Washington. We know that from the flight crew. If it wasn’t Cooper, then it might have been the dummy parachute. And Cooper might have used the dummy parachute to simulate the effects of a jump. But if he did, then that brings up a parallel issue.

If Cooper knew how to simulate a jump, then he also knew how to disguise one. It’s two sides of the same coin. Cooper wouldn’t want to throw off his pursuers in one location, just to attract them back in another location. So Cooper also needed to disguise his real jump. How could Cooper do that?

I came across one possible way for doing this, mentioned briefly in Smith’s book. It is called “squidding.” I always thought “squidding” meant simply that the parachute failed to open for the jumper. Apparently there is also another use for this term. In this other form, “squidding” is a jumping technique. Apparently it means the jumper holds onto the doorway of the airplane (somehow,) lets his parachute “squid out,” and then waits - hopefully - for the canopy to blossom out in full, pulling the jumper straight back off of the plane.

I have no idea if this technique actually works. It is only a suggestion. But if it does work, then it could be one explanation for how Cooper might have exited Flight 305 without creating a noticeable “dip” motion in the tail end of the plane in flight. “Squidding out” of Flight 305 might have disguised Cooper’s real jump rather well.

I’m not qualified to say anything more about this “squidding” technique, because I have no expertise at all in skydiving. I’ll leave that completely up for discussion by others who do. I simply mention it here as a possibility I read about, because I saw it mentioned in Smith’s book.

CONCLUSION:
Here is the theory I am offering to this forum for consideration:

1) I think D.B. Cooper might have used the dummy parachute as a heavy projectile to simulate a jump.

2) If he did, then I think D.B. Cooper also used another planned technique to disguise his real jump.

How? I really don’t know how. That’s why Bruce suggested I post it on this forum, for consideration. Maybe somebody else can figure out how. And that’s the spirit in which I am posting this theory here on this forum, simply “for your consideration.”

Best wishes to all,  John S.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:47:19 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1689 on: May 02, 2017, 06:11:58 PM »
John, I approved your registration, so you are good to go...

Welcome to the forum....

To members already here....we need to start working as a team again, if you don't like someone's comment, then don't reply, or attack it. it's very simple to disagree on something without smart ass remarks. it gets us nowhere and drives people away.

We have a couple of good field projects in the making, so lets focus on getting some answers...Kermit will be looking into the placard while several of us patiently wait for the water levels to go down so we can get the T-Bar project off the ground. this is the team work I enjoy seeing on this forum.

Thank You  O0
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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1690 on: May 02, 2017, 07:13:47 PM »
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The image of the plane on the ground with the damaged panels from the FBI sled drop test is labelled "19"..

The image of the FBI sled drop from inside the plane during the test with intact panels is labelled "12"..

19 comes after 12... those damaged drop test panels were AFTER the test



Flyjack,

What picture number 12 shows is a USAF parachutist at the bottom of the stairs in flight.  This fellow made it all the way to the bottom step and then returned to the cabin.  Also, note the instruments installed for the test on the right side of the stairs entrance. 
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1691 on: May 02, 2017, 07:31:07 PM »
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The image of the plane on the ground with the damaged panels from the FBI sled drop test is labelled "19"..

The image of the FBI sled drop from inside the plane during the test with intact panels is labelled "12"..

19 comes after 12... those damaged drop test panels were AFTER the test



Flyjack,

What picture number 12 shows is a USAF parachutist at the bottom of the stairs in flight.  This fellow made it all the way to the bottom step and then returned to the cabin.  Also, note the instruments installed for the test on the right side of the stairs entrance.

yes, my point is the picture sequence. The one on the ground "#19" with the torn side panels came after this one not the day before. So, the damaged panels are from the drop test.
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1692 on: May 02, 2017, 07:33:47 PM »
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So what was the need? Any ideas?

I might be going out on a limb here, just a hunch....I'm getting a real strong feeling, and this time it isn't gas.....but I think he took the "X" chute as a backup, just in case the main (back) chute didn't work.
Meyer
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1693 on: May 02, 2017, 07:49:09 PM »
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So what was the need? Any ideas?

I might be going out on a limb here, just a hunch....I'm getting a real strong feeling, and this time it isn't gas.....but I think he took the "X" chute as a backup, just in case the main (back) chute didn't work.
Meyer


Possible, but how did he attach?
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1694 on: May 02, 2017, 08:22:53 PM »
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So what was the need? Any ideas?

I might be going out on a limb here, just a hunch....I'm getting a real strong feeling, and this time it isn't gas.....but I think he took the "X" chute as a backup, just in case the main (back) chute didn't work.
Meyer


Possible, but how did he attach?

The chest chute had two snaps for connecting to the front of a harness that, in turn, had two pieces of hardware attached for those snaps.  Without places on the harness for the snaps, Cooper could have jury-rigged a connection using a portion of the shroud lines from the other chest chute.  He could have placed the two snaps under the harness and then connected the two snaps using the shroud lines.  If Cooper did this, it may be one of the reasons he was probably a no-pull.  Maybe he couldn't find the back chute ripcord or was unable to pull it.

After jumping, Cooper had less than 60 seconds until he was on the ground as a no-pull.  Darkness, clouds, rain, tumbling, and quite a bit of stress didn't do him any good either.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 08:23:47 PM by Robert99 »