Wow Flyjack, very interesting info. Might there be another piece out there waiting to be found?

377

two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.     

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two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.   

The shearing of the locks is an easy fix.

The sled drop panel is ripped not removed.

The placard that was found was from the secondary "emergency" system door not the primary. That is the only piece that gets completely detached.

The sequence of events from TINA supports the fact that the hijacker failed to operate the main Airstair system..

I read something that alluded to panel cavity search around the Airstairs in Reno, they may have removed the larger side panels when searching the plane.

This was touched upon it in the websleuths forum... by user "hominid"

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"hominid said:
05-28-2012 05:53 PM
stair droppin
Quote Originally Posted by MrShutter45  View Post
How did Cooper damage the stairs? are you talking about from the release stage?
The uplock roller on each side out near the end of the stair was sheared off as it was designed to do when the pneumatic emergency opener was actuated. It's likely the claw (on the latch mechanism) that engaged each roller was also broken, as well as maybe the lever arm each is on. The uplock shearing was from using the pneumatic emergency opener. The other would be from the claws not being fully opened before the pneumatic was activated.
 
MrShutter45 said:
05-28-2012 06:09 PM
Damage
are you sure about that much damage? here is a pic of the stairs down in reno.

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here are the stairs after the FBI was done.

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hominid said:
05-28-2012 06:30 PM
Stair damage
Quote Originally Posted by MrShutter45  View Post
are you sure about that much damage? here is a pic of the stairs down in reno.

....

here are the stairs after the FBI was done.
Yes, I am sure of it. The pic of the stair in Reno is not clear enough to see whether or not the roller is still there. The other one is not of "after the FBI was done." It is pic of before the Jan 6 re-enactment flight, for which the uplock rollers had been replaced but the stair was rigged to be free-flapping when dropped. Really wasn't a lot of damage. Easily repaired in a day.
 

MrShutter45 said:
05-28-2012 06:37 PM
Damage
ok, understood, you speaking of damage to the upper carriage part of the stairs, not visible in the pic correct?
 
MrShutter45 said:
05-28-2012 06:40 PM
Stairs
not that I haven't beat this into the ground already, here is the video I made a while back, don't know if you seen it posted on DZ.

Last edited by KateB; 05-23-2015 at 07:44 PM. Reason: repair url tag.
 

hominid said:
05-28-2012 06:41 PM
stair damage
Quote Originally Posted by MrShutter45  View Post
ok, understood, you speaking of damage to the upper carriage part of the stairs, not visible in the pic correct?
The damage to the stair itself would be visible if you could get a clear close-up of the lower end of the stair, near where the strut attaches. That would be uplock roller being gone or maybe just hanging "by a nail." The other damage would be to the mechanism up inside the fuselage that normally latches onto the rollers."

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two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.   

Here it is, the drop test side panel is damaged, ripped NOT removed... for photographic reasons, completely false.

I have never seen. The place Ard attached.. is it on the door that opens up to drop the stairs?

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two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.   

Here it is, the drop test side panel is damaged, ripped NOT removed... for photographic reasons, completely false.

Flyjack,

If your photograph was taken AFTER the FBI sled tests, why does the cloth modesty panel on the right side appear to be in pristine condition?  And if the modesty panel on the left side was damaged in flight, why aren't there fragments of the panel still on its supporting structure?

My guess is that your photograph was taken as the FBI tests were being planned.

Robert99,

For the record I do have respect for you and your insights,

but look carefully at the panels. Both side have in flight damage to them. The near one far worse. They were not removed for in flight test photographs.

The Airstair operation for the test was not exactly the same as the NORJAK event. The "emergency" Airstair created a "free fall", the test would have been more of a controlled event.

I have never seen. The place Ard attached.. is it on the door that opens up to drop the stairs?

Let's clear this up... the Placard is from the secondary "emergency release system", check my previous post and attachments..

There is the main Airstair control on all 727 planes, but 164 passenger 727-100's have a secondary "emergency" release system. The hijacker initially failed to work the main system, it has a larger hinged attached door. Next to that door is the "emergency" system with a small detachable door/cover. The placard that was found was from here. The means the door is out there somewhere. probably a little larger than the placard with finger pull holes in it.

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two more attachments re Airstairs..

Flyjack,

Here are some more things for you to consider.

The NWA hijacked aircraft was a Boeing 727-051, the 137th 727 built, production number 18803, which first flew on 04/09/1965, and which was delivered to NWA on 04/22/1965.

The airliner landed at Reno at a few minutes past 11:00 PM PST on November 24, 1971.  No damage to the stairway was noted except that the cloth modesty panels on the stairway had been shredded at the lower end of the stairs.  The stairway did drag on the runway and taxi strip to a very limited extent at Reno.  But the next day (Thanksgiving Day), the airliner was flown back to Seattle with no repairs noted at Reno.

Once back in Seattle, the modesty panels were replaced and it was noted at that point that the placard was missing.  There were no reports of any further damage to the aircraft or of any access doors missing.  The airliner was returned to passenger service within a day or two (either Friday or Saturday).

In the FBI tests, it would be logical to remove the modesty panels since the sled tests were going to be photographed from an adjacent aircraft.  That was just for photographic purposes.

There is nothing whatsoever to support the idea that Cooper did some major damage to the stairs (or any damage at all) when he lowered them.  And there is nothing to support the idea that an access door was lost during the hijacking.   

Here it is, the drop test side panel is damaged, ripped NOT removed... for photographic reasons, completely false.

Flyjack,

If your photograph was taken AFTER the FBI sled tests, why does the cloth modesty panel on the right side appear to be in pristine condition?  And if the modesty panel on the left side was damaged in flight, why aren't there fragments of the panel still on its supporting structure?

My guess is that your photograph was taken as the FBI tests were being planned.

Robert99,

For the record I do have respect for you and your insights,

but look carefully at the panels. Both side have in flight damage to them. The near one far worse. They were not removed for in flight test photographs.

The Airstair operation for the test was not exactly the same as the NORJAK event. The "emergency" Airstair created a "free fall", the test would have been more of a controlled event.

You keep saying DROP TEST PHOTO but are you talking about the condition of the side panels when N467US landed at Reno ? You have me totally confused!

In any event here is a photo of the DROP TEST taken by the chase plane. The panels look intact to me?

You are using a photo from Gray's book - tell us the date of Gray's photo: What day was the photo taken? ?