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If LeClair was still breathing at 8:18 PM PST, November 24, 1971, then he was not Cooper.

Can you please elaborate why you think LeClair couldn't have been Cooper?

Check the "NWA 305 FLIGHT PATH THREAD - REVISITED" thread and read the 9 (or 10?) parts that I posted there.

Or you can wait for the "out takes" from the recent Cooper "Expedition Unknown" TV episode and, if my "out takes" are in there, they will include statements like "the airliner passed Tina Bar along the west side of the Columbia River and within 1000 feet horizontally of where we are standing" and "for the money to get to Tina Bar, Cooper had to be a no-pull who cratered in the very restricted area that we are discussing here", plus other such things.  I apparently didn't waffle enough on some of those comments for them to make the original episode.

Basically, the money at Tina Bar could not have come down the main river stream.  Instead, he had to come from a very small area close to the channel between the east side of Caterpillar Island and the shore.  Cooper could not have landed in that area if he had an open parachute anywhere above about 500 feet.  Ergo, Cooper died as a no-pull, splattered in the small area in question, and within a small number of years the spring flood waters had moved the money (and probably Cooper himself) to Tina Bar.  Some of the money and fragments were left there but everything else went on downstream.

Yeah, so the guy pulls off a great heist, and then somehow cannot manage a parachute jump.   Odds are ultra low, that he died in the fall...The same odds you'd give any paratrooper jumping at night.  Somehow folk like to think Cooper was the dude at everything else, but then was a moron on the way down.  Or he "drowned"...  just ridiculous to think the guy is competent then turns into a frog.... He walked out alive, with no doubt...
[/quote]

The jump was survivable.  Thousands of people have survived jumps made in worse conditions than Cooper was exposed to.  Then again, probably thousands of people have died in jumps made in perfect conditions.  Nevertheless, there is no reason whatsoever for believing that Cooper survived the jump.

In your January 12th 100% endorsement of Max Gunther's book on Amazon.com, you write, "Truth comes in three stages . . first it is ridiculed, then it is vehemently opposed, then it is considered self evident."  Which stage are you in with respect to my post?

Just passing on information.

The folly over - Negotiable American Currency I:

It became clear this week that Tom Kaye and others are still pushing Cooper as a Canadian, based on (1) no accent, and (2) Negotiable American Currency, a phrase Bruce Smith pulled out of the bag years ago claiming these are Cooper's words, and Tom Kaye and Carol bought into this theory and have broadcast it publicly ... to this very day.

This broke in 2013-14 on Dropzone with the following posts by various players. These posts give an account of the central issues st stake:

FLYJACK

Dec 27, 2013, 7:05 AM
Post #49615 of 58140 (45167 views)
          "negotiable American currency" [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
"negotiable American currency",,

Only a foreigner would use that phrase..

Either this came from the hijacker or it didn't, when I was at the Museum symposium, Bruce was adamant that it didn't come from the hijacker,,, this is also problematic..

We know that everyone else was American, and no American would use that phrase, so it is even more difficult to explain the injection of that phrase into the narrative excluding the hijacker.

Some crazy thoughts,
Is it possible that the stewardess knew the hijacker OR subconsciously sensed that he was foreign causing the use of the phrase, "negotiable American currency"?

Northwest Orient Airline did fly some International routes, did the stewardess stay on domestic flights or travel internationally.. did she have experience with foreign passengers?

Did anyone else hear the hijacker speak?

from Kaye
"the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent"

...

   

smokin99

Dec 27, 2013, 7:24 AM
Post #49617 of 58140 (45148 views)

Not sure where Bruce got his information from..but...

The phrase..from the flight crew's handwritten notes written during the hijacking....was "negotiable currency".

The transcript (305 talking) has the phrase "Wants money in negotiable American currency. Denomination not important".

<edit by Georger, Dec 27, 2013> (It was said by Scott over the radio. That is why it is in the Flight Comm Transcript. It is Scott speaking, not Cooper. Who is saying what to whom, and why? Scott is giving a synopsis situational account and giving instructions. It is Scott’s report, not Cooper’s and not any other crew member’s. Cooper has specified Mexico City and Scott knows that – that is the only foreign connection. So Scott is focused on what will work in this situation and what he thinks needs to happen to pacify a hijacker. Scott is just trying to cover all bases to keep hijacker happy! That is the only semantic reading you can give to this.)

I will be the first to attest that it is hard to keep all of this stuff straight with all of the misinformation that has been reported over the years.

Edited to add....Bruce has interviewed a lot of folks...was he saying that this was something the crew wrote or said in two different places that the hijacker didn't actually say?

Or was he just contesting the use of the word "American" and saying the hijacker only said "negotiable currency" as per the notes?


FLYJACK

Dec 27, 2013, 7:44 AM
Post #49618 of 58140 (45133 views)

Yes, if the hijacker did in fact use that phrase, he would have been a foreigner, so that phrase has to be explained ex the hijacker to maintain an American as a suspect.. Bruce suggested that it was interjected by the crew,, however, that makes less sense as they are all American,, Why would someone other than the hijacker use that phrase??

Something is fishy here?? you can't have it both ways, you can't argue that the crew added it when they are all American AND argue the hijacker didn't say it because he had to be American.

I can't see why an American crew would add the phrase and if they didn't then it came from the hijacker and if the hijacker said it, he is very likely a foreigner.

In other words, it is LESS likely that the crew added the phrase than it coming from the hijacker.

Edit,, Bruce didn't go into detail, but he felt that the phrase didn't come from the hijacker. it was interpreted by the crew.. My deal is, you have to explain away that phrase coming from the hijacker to maintain an American as a suspect.. If you can't explain it away, it points to a foreigner. The explanation is weaker than the phrase coming from the hijacker.



FLYJACK

Dec 27, 2013, 8:26 AM
Post #49622 of 58140 (45080 views)
Shortcut
I am a foreigner and American currency is an international currency accepted and used almost everywhere,, in fact, I have American and Canadian currency in my wallet right now,, It is necessary to distinguish "American" currency in verbal discourse.. I would never use "negotiable" but that is a term a criminal might use. "negotiable" means transferrable..

As a foreigner, I can say absolutely that I would say that phrase without even thinking.. it is automatic.

So, IF the hijacker said "American" currency, he was likely a foreigner, but then why would the American crew add "American" currency to the narrative.
<edit> Sure, but explain why the crew might add it,,, if they are American,,, the argument makes no sense,, the hijacker didn't say it because he is an American, but the crew added it even though they are American..

something doesn't add up here..


smokin99

Feb 12, 2014, 9:47 PM
Post #51764 of 58140 (41106 views)

As for the negotiable American currency, no one really knows how much weight to place on those words. There has been and continues to be speculation about certain foreign candidates such as you mentioned but so far it has been difficult to pin down opportunity and placement..... and then there's the language/accent thing… and who said what and who didn’t say: negotiable American currency. It matters who said this because it is being attributed to Cooper by Bruce Smith and Tom Kaye, and now FLYJACK. But it is Scott actually who said this, not Cooper. And the pilots notes say “The words from the flight crew's handwritten notes written during the hijacking....was "negotiable currency”.

This could be a case of people (Smith and company) jumping to conclusions.


 
 

The folly over - Negotiable American Currency II:

The pilot notes read: "negotiable currency".

Scott's instruction to the Company in the Transcript reads: ""Wants money in negotiable American currency. Denomination not important"

Mucklow's testimony 12/1/72 reads: "Mucklow later learned that the note which Schaffner had carried to the pilot contained a list of specific demands. The hijacker later told (repeated to) Mucklow that he wanted $200,000 in circulated US currency, two back and two front parachutes, and fuel trucks to meet the plane when it landed.

So, Mucklow reports  the hijacker told her he wanted $200,000 in circulated US currency, and based on everything Scott had been told by Mucklow and Schaffner and seen with his own eyes in Cooper's original note, Scott reports to the company "Wants money in negotiable American currency. Denomination not important". It is a conflation of everything Scott had been told or seen with his own eyes. And Mucklow testifies the hijacker used the term "US currency" with her.

Context:  We already know Cooper had specified Mexico City as his destination, multiple times. We also know that US currency is not only usable but preferred in foreign countries, as well as in the USA. The hijacker has even specified "circulated" currency vs. new currency since old currency is less suspicious than 'new' currency, under this circumstance. (Some bank robbers specify the same thing so as not to arose suspicion later!) Cooper's specifications and he gave a lot of specifications in his demands, are all functional as opposed to being identity driven.

There is nothing in his specifications that guarantees he is a foreigner.

Cooper's demands and his language used are all "functional". His demands given which are given to help him function in this hijacking and afterwards whether he is in the USA or in Mexico, and "no accent", do not identify him as a foreigner any more than they identify him as a resident of Philadelphia - literally! What his demands identify is a person intent on conducting this hijacking which is unique, and surviving it and afterward, wherever he winds up stateside or in Mexico, or in Canada, or in Berlin!

This whole hijacking is marked by rather thoughtful 'technical' demands - from flap settings to him wanting old money vs. new. This is a guy who gets very upset (see the FBI interviews of crew) when Tina asks him where he is from. He is trying to protect his identity. For all we know he left the tie intentionally to throw people off further. The contamination on that tie could be a plant. You just can't rule anything out here or get sidetracked by what could very easily be 'extraneous suppositions based on figments'. Everything he demanded and said make sense from a common-sense point of view leading to a person who is a pretty good psychologist (in my estimation) fully aware that people are looking for cues from him and his primary goal is diversion and escape ... after pulling off what he knows is going to be a hijacking people will want his hide over (badly)! All happening in very highly charged political times!

I don't think "US currency" means anything more than what it says ... in the context self evident at the time.   

NAC is a short hand for "negotiable American currency." When I first presented the abbreviation, I cited it as follows:

"...'negotiable American currency' (NAC)..."

This is the standard format for introducing an abbreviation.

The folly over - Negotiable American Currency II:

The pilot notes read: "negotiable currency".

Scott's instruction to the Company in the Transcript reads: ""Wants money in negotiable American currency. Denomination not important"

Mucklow's testimony 12/1/72 reads: "Mucklow later learned that the note which Schaffner had carried to the pilot contained a list of specific demands. The hijacker later told (repeated to) Mucklow that he wanted $200,000 in circulated US currency, two back and two front parachutes, and fuel trucks to meet the plane when it landed.

So, Mucklow reports  the hijacker told her he wanted $200,000 in circulated US currency, and based on everything Scott had been told by Mucklow and Schaffner and seen with his own eyes in Cooper's original note, Scott reports to the company "Wants money in negotiable American currency. Denomination not important". It is a conflation of everything Scott had been told or seen with his own eyes. And Mucklow testifies the hijacker used the term "US currency" with her.

Context:  We already know Cooper had specified Mexico City as his destination, multiple times. We also know that US currency is not only usable but preferred in foreign countries, as well as in the USA. The hijacker has even specified "circulated" currency vs. new currency since old currency is less suspicious than 'new' currency, under this circumstance. (Some bank robbers specify the same thing so as not to arose suspicion later!) Cooper's specifications and he gave a lot of specifications in his demands, are all functional as opposed to being identity driven.

There is nothing in his specifications that guarantees he is a foreigner.

Cooper's demands and his language used are all "functional". His demands given which are given to help him function in this hijacking and afterwards whether he is in the USA or in Mexico, and "no accent", do not identify him as a foreigner any more than they identify him as a resident of Philadelphia - literally! What his demands identify is a person intent on conducting this hijacking which is unique, and surviving it and afterward, wherever he winds up stateside or in Mexico, or in Canada, or in Berlin!

This whole hijacking is marked by rather thoughtful 'technical' demands - from flap settings to him wanting old money vs. new. This is a guy who gets very upset (see the FBI interviews of crew) when Tina asks him where he is from. He is trying to protect his identity. For all we know he left the tie intentionally to throw people off further. The contamination on that tie could be a plant. You just can't rule anything out here or get sidetracked by what could very easily be 'extraneous suppositions based on figments'. Everything he demanded and said make sense from a common-sense point of view leading to a person who is a pretty good psychologist (in my estimation) fully aware that people are looking for cues from him and his primary goal is diversion and escape ... after pulling off what he knows is going to be a hijacking people will want his hide over (badly)! All happening in very highly charged political times!

I don't think "US currency" means anything more than what it says ... in the context self evident at the time.   

I just rescanned the FBI notes,

Mexico was mentioned by the hijacker afterward not prior to the note,

Of course it is possible that multiple crew members added "US" or "American" to the currency description. But then why would they? that is more strange than the hijacker using the terminology.

I don't think I have ever used the qualifier "Canadian" currency in any transaction within Canada but I go to the US often and use "American" or "US" money or currency, It is exactly what a Canadian would say automatically.. that is significant.

Did the hijacker actually use the "US" or "American" term, we weren't there, all we have are the FBI notes. Is it significant if he did, YES. Does it guarantee he is a Canadian, NO.

My strategy is to try to focus where others haven't, not because because the hijacker "has to be" Canadian but because the US suspects have been thoroughly examined.

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If LeClair was still breathing at 8:18 PM PST, November 24, 1971, then he was not Cooper.

Can you please elaborate why you think LeClair couldn't have been Cooper?

Check the "NWA 305 FLIGHT PATH THREAD - REVISITED" thread and read the 9 (or 10?) parts that I posted there.

Or you can wait for the "out takes" from the recent Cooper "Expedition Unknown" TV episode and, if my "out takes" are in there, they will include statements like "the airliner passed Tina Bar along the west side of the Columbia River and within 1000 feet horizontally of where we are standing" and "for the money to get to Tina Bar, Cooper had to be a no-pull who cratered in the very restricted area that we are discussing here", plus other such things.  I apparently didn't waffle enough on some of those comments for them to make the original episode.

Basically, the money at Tina Bar could not have come down the main river stream.  Instead, he had to come from a very small area close to the channel between the east side of Caterpillar Island and the shore.  Cooper could not have landed in that area if he had an open parachute anywhere above about 500 feet.  Ergo, Cooper died as a no-pull, splattered in the small area in question, and within a small number of years the spring flood waters had moved the money (and probably Cooper himself) to Tina Bar.  Some of the money and fragments were left there but everything else went on downstream.

Yeah, so the guy pulls off a great heist, and then somehow cannot manage a parachute jump.   Odds are ultra low, that he died in the fall...The same odds you'd give any paratrooper jumping at night.  Somehow folk like to think Cooper was the dude at everything else, but then was a moron on the way down.  Or he "drowned"...  just ridiculous to think the guy is competent then turns into a frog.... He walked out alive, with no doubt...
[/quote]


Criminals are known for doing stupid things. Cooper could of easily had the " I know everything" complex. When people have a suspect in mind it blocks things like this out because it doesn't fit.
[/quote]
Shutter, the chutes and or body would have been found.    Especially body still connected to the chute.   Unless one wants to believe he landed in river, which are low odds.   And even so, the chute would have snagged a branch or something in water, and not sunk.

“There was no harness with her at all,”

not so, Ridiculous...

Took more than 20 people over 12 hours to find her in a known jump zone...


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