Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1831042 times)

haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1155 on: September 15, 2016, 11:55:26 PM »
Re: Georger   I usually make a map of such things people ID but in this case I guess I didnt ...I spent hours searching. If I remember this correctly it was north of Battleground/Orchards and east some distance from V23. I dont remember St Helens being close to it but Im not sure now .... I wish Sluggo was here, he would know in an instant what Im talking about.
                             

                          Instead of Mount St. Helens, could it have been close to Mount Rainier? I definitely remember Hager talking about such a place, I just can't remember where he said it was located. I even remember him showing me on a map where it was. It seems like it was somewhere close to a mountain.(I guess that doesn't really help much.....sorry)
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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1156 on: September 16, 2016, 12:03:42 AM »
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Re: Georger   I usually make a map of such things people ID but in this case I guess I didnt ...I spent hours searching. If I remember this correctly it was north of Battleground/Orchards and east some distance from V23. I dont remember St Helens being close to it but Im not sure now .... I wish Sluggo was here, he would know in an instant what Im talking about.
                             

                          Instead of Mount St. Helens, could it have been close to Mount Rainier? I definitely remember Hager talking about such a place, I just can't remember where he said it was located. I even remember him showing me on a map where it was. It seems like it was somewhere close to a mountain.(I guess that doesn't really help much.....sorry)

Are you sure it wasn't Jo Weber who claimed to know of such a place near Vancouver?

If I remember her claims correctly, that was the place where Duane and "the boys" acquired their alleged parachuting experience, fought forest fires, saved the Pacific Northwest from the Japanese balloon bombs during WW2 (nevertheless, I still saw one of those in flight), and helped the people over at Hanford whenever they encountered a tough physics problem.
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1157 on: September 16, 2016, 12:28:26 AM »
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Re: Georger   I usually make a map of such things people ID but in this case I guess I didnt ...I spent hours searching. If I remember this correctly it was north of Battleground/Orchards and east some distance from V23. I dont remember St Helens being close to it but Im not sure now .... I wish Sluggo was here, he would know in an instant what Im talking about.
                             

                          Instead of Mount St. Helens, could it have been close to Mount Rainier? I definitely remember Hager talking about such a place, I just can't remember where he said it was located. I even remember him showing me on a map where it was. It seems like it was somewhere close to a mountain.(I guess that doesn't really help much.....sorry)

Are you sure it wasn't Jo Weber who claimed to know of such a place near Vancouver?

If I remember her claims correctly, that was the place where Duane and "the boys" acquired their alleged parachuting experience, fought forest fires, saved the Pacific Northwest from the Japanese balloon bombs during WW2 (nevertheless, I still saw one of those in flight), and helped the people over at Hanford whenever they encountered a tough physics problem.

It may have been Jo who posted something like the above, that lead to the IDing of an ordinance test range.

In any event you are correct, I think: it's the Yakima Firing (and Development) Center. The Wiki article on it is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Relevant posts were:

Subject    Username    Forum    Post time
Re: [377] IT'S PROBABLY A FLARE CHUTE    Robert99    Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia    Nov 20, 2012, 3:04 PM
Re: [377] IT'S PROBABLY A FLARE CHUTE    Robert99    Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia    Nov 20, 2012, 11:39 AM
Re: [Robert99] IT'S PROBABLY A FLARE CHUTE    georger    Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia    Nov 20, 2012, 11:55 AM
Re: [georger] Golf Clubs    Robert99    Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia    Jan 22, 2013, 11:47 AM
Re: [airtwardo] "Leg"    Guru312    Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia    Jan 29, 2009, 7:44 PM

Guru's post above is a very interesting read! Here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

And it is here (attached map) not where I thought. It is way east of the flight path.

Of course the possible relevance of this is Tom's particles, as per the phD who posted thru Bruce, and its relationship to Ft Lewis where a few Cooper suspects were examined ..
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 12:32:35 AM by georger »
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1158 on: September 16, 2016, 01:17:20 PM »
"
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Re: Georger   I usually make a map of such things people ID but in this case I guess I didnt ...I spent hours searching. If I remember this correctly it was north of Battleground/Orchards and east some distance from V23. I dont remember St Helens being close to it but Im not sure now .... I wish Sluggo was here, he would know in an instant what Im talking about.
                             

                          Instead of Mount St. Helens, could it have been close to Mount Rainier? I definitely remember Hager talking about such a place, I just can't remember where he said it was located. I even remember him showing me on a map where it was. It seems like it was somewhere close to a mountain.(I guess that doesn't really help much.....sorry)

Are you sure it wasn't Jo Weber who claimed to know of such a place near Vancouver?

If I remember her claims correctly, that was the place where Duane and "the boys" acquired their alleged parachuting experience, fought forest fires, saved the Pacific Northwest from the Japanese balloon bombs during WW2 (nevertheless, I still saw one of those in flight), and helped the people over at Hanford whenever they encountered a tough physics problem."

Good one! I actually laughed out loud.

You failed, however, to credit Duane's pivotal role in developing the Fulton Skyhook.

377
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 01:20:05 PM by 377 »
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1159 on: September 16, 2016, 01:57:28 PM »
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"
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Re: Georger   I usually make a map of such things people ID but in this case I guess I didnt ...I spent hours searching. If I remember this correctly it was north of Battleground/Orchards and east some distance from V23. I dont remember St Helens being close to it but Im not sure now .... I wish Sluggo was here, he would know in an instant what Im talking about.
                             

                          Instead of Mount St. Helens, could it have been close to Mount Rainier? I definitely remember Hager talking about such a place, I just can't remember where he said it was located. I even remember him showing me on a map where it was. It seems like it was somewhere close to a mountain.(I guess that doesn't really help much.....sorry)

Are you sure it wasn't Jo Weber who claimed to know of such a place near Vancouver?

If I remember her claims correctly, that was the place where Duane and "the boys" acquired their alleged parachuting experience, fought forest fires, saved the Pacific Northwest from the Japanese balloon bombs during WW2 (nevertheless, I still saw one of those in flight), and helped the people over at Hanford whenever they encountered a tough physics problem."

Good one! I actually laughed out loud.

You failed, however, to credit Duane's pivotal role in developing the Fulton Skyhook.

377

If a person is trying to connect dots and working at a keyboard, sooner or later they will chuck out something that grazes reality ... or even reads like Shakespeare! Even fools have the seed of an idea sometimes.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 01:59:17 PM by georger »
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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1160 on: September 16, 2016, 02:10:03 PM »
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"
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Re: Georger   I usually make a map of such things people ID but in this case I guess I didnt ...I spent hours searching. If I remember this correctly it was north of Battleground/Orchards and east some distance from V23. I dont remember St Helens being close to it but Im not sure now .... I wish Sluggo was here, he would know in an instant what Im talking about.
                             

                          Instead of Mount St. Helens, could it have been close to Mount Rainier? I definitely remember Hager talking about such a place, I just can't remember where he said it was located. I even remember him showing me on a map where it was. It seems like it was somewhere close to a mountain.(I guess that doesn't really help much.....sorry)

Are you sure it wasn't Jo Weber who claimed to know of such a place near Vancouver?

If I remember her claims correctly, that was the place where Duane and "the boys" acquired their alleged parachuting experience, fought forest fires, saved the Pacific Northwest from the Japanese balloon bombs during WW2 (nevertheless, I still saw one of those in flight), and helped the people over at Hanford whenever they encountered a tough physics problem."

Good one! I actually laughed out loud.

You failed, however, to credit Duane's pivotal role in developing the Fulton Skyhook.

377

Hey!  377, this is a true story.  I may have actually seen Duane in the summer of 1966, assuming he wasn't in jail somewhere.

I happened to be at Edward AFB then working on a flight test program and one day some USAF group did a couple of live pick-ups using a C-130 with a Fulton Skyhook on the nose.  These pick-ups were more or less represented as being the first such live ones.  At least the USAF never bothered to mention that the CIA had already been doing live pick-ups for some time in "operational situations" with a Fulton Skyhook on the nose of a B-17, and sometimes with Fulton himself onboard the aircraft taking it all in.

The first pick-up was made in the morning and involved a Lieutenant from the USAF group in question.  I think this Lieutenant was killed about two or three years later in the crash of a private aircraft.

The second pick-up was made in the afternoon and was a dual one.  The Commander of the USAF group in question plus a volunteer Airman from his group, were the test subjects in the afternoon pick-up.

Both of these pick-ups were sights to be seen.  At one point in the pick-ups, the test subjects were ABOVE the C-130.  While I have seen a number of additional demonstrations of the C-130 Fulton Skyhooks over the years, dummies (meaning no humans) were used in all of the later demonstrations.

Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention to the right people, but I didn't see anyone that day that even remotely looked like Duane.

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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1161 on: September 16, 2016, 02:22:08 PM »
VERY COOL R99!! Must have been a truly amazing sight to behold.

Have you noticed that every time there is a picture of some guys doing anything even remotely NORJACK related, Jo sees Duane in it?

Fulton Ice Station lift, smoke jumper pics, etc.

I am sure Duane was involved in the Iran Contra stuff. Ollie North and Gene Hasenfus, they were surely some of "the BOYS".

The guy in the back with the hood, surely Duane. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377



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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1162 on: September 16, 2016, 02:37:39 PM »
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If a person is trying to connect dots and working at a keyboard, sooner or later they will chuck out something that grazes reality ... or even reads like Shakespeare! Even fools have the seed of an idea sometimes.

Georger,

I have recently seen something which claims the Internet proves that the claim of a million monkeys, pounding on a million keyboards for a million years, could produce the complete works of Shakespeare is FALSE!
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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1163 on: September 16, 2016, 02:52:20 PM »
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VERY COOL R99!! Must have been a truly amazing sight to behold.

Have you noticed that every time there is a picture of some guys doing anything even remotely NORJACK related, Jo sees Duane in it?

Fulton Ice Station lift, smoke jumper pics, etc.

I am sure Duane was involved in the Iran Contra stuff. Ollie North and Gene Hasenfus, they were surely some of "the BOYS".

The guy in the back with the hood, surely Duane. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

And the person kneeling in front, and wearing a white jacket, must be Jo.  At least, based on the eyebrows, it appears to be a female.
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Offline boneman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1164 on: September 21, 2016, 08:39:56 PM »
Can anyone shed light on the "maps" that Cooper supposedly asked for with his demand list?  Is this confirmed, and if so what were the maps provided, and what happened to them?

From Hancock interview, document SE 164-81, p.55:
"She stated that the hijacker made his demands known in this order:
1. He wanted the money first
2. He wanted people off the aircraft after money was onboard
3. He wanted parachutes and four crew meals
4. He wanted the plane completely re-fueled
5. He wanted maps"

From Mucklow interview, document PH 164-133, p.50:
"She told him that they had crew meals and maps, and requested permission to go get them.  He said "yes", and she did, returning the items and taking a seat next to him"
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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1165 on: September 21, 2016, 09:30:35 PM »
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Can anyone shed light on the "maps" that Cooper supposedly asked for with his demand list?  Is this confirmed, and if so what were the maps provided, and what happened to them?

From Hancock interview, document SE 164-81, p.55:
"She stated that the hijacker made his demands known in this order:
1. He wanted the money first
2. He wanted people off the aircraft after money was onboard
3. He wanted parachutes and four crew meals
4. He wanted the plane completely re-fueled
5. He wanted maps"

From Mucklow interview, document PH 164-133, p.50:
"She told him that they had crew meals and maps, and requested permission to go get them.  He said "yes", and she did, returning the items and taking a seat next to him"


The maps that Al Lee, Chief NWA Pilot in Seattle, had delivered to the flight crew, along with the crew meals, were aircraft IFR navigation charts and instrument approach procedures.  This would be maps that the flight crew would need to get to Reno and further south.  Typically, the flight crew would be carrying such charts only for the area of their scheduled routes.

The maps that Cooper wanted were probably the same maps mentioned above.  If Cooper had specified a non-aviation map, he would be giving away information on his planned jump point. 
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1166 on: September 21, 2016, 11:49:53 PM »
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Can anyone shed light on the "maps" that Cooper supposedly asked for with his demand list?  Is this confirmed, and if so what were the maps provided, and what happened to them?

From Hancock interview, document SE 164-81, p.55:
"She stated that the hijacker made his demands known in this order:
1. He wanted the money first
2. He wanted people off the aircraft after money was onboard
3. He wanted parachutes and four crew meals
4. He wanted the plane completely re-fueled
5. He wanted maps"

From Mucklow interview, document PH 164-133, p.50:
"She told him that they had crew meals and maps, and requested permission to go get them.  He said "yes", and she did, returning the items and taking a seat next to him"


The maps that Al Lee, Chief NWA Pilot in Seattle, had delivered to the flight crew, along with the crew meals, were aircraft IFR navigation charts and instrument approach procedures.  This would be maps that the flight crew would need to get to Reno and further south.  Typically, the flight crew would be carrying such charts only for the area of their scheduled routes.

The maps that Cooper wanted were probably the same maps mentioned above.  If Cooper had specified a non-aviation map, he would be giving away information on his planned jump point.

The maps that Cooper wanted - he wanted maps

Im not sure Cooper wanted or ordered ANY maps!  I think the issue was leaving the plane for any purpose so they were explaining to Cooper why they needed to leave the plane or let people on the plane. The problem may be we dont have the full conversation in the transcripts - without that the context and exact order or who said what is sometimes impossible to understand.

There is no line that says he was given "the maps". There is no line stating he wanted maps. There is no line in the Pilot Notes that mentions maps as one of his demands. There is no testimony about him looking at maps he had been given. There is no testimony from anyone about what maps he was given. The only source for him wanting maps is the one line in a later interview Tina did but maps is not listed in his original demands in the Pilot Notes.

That said, the fact is we will probably never know!  NORJAK is a black hole you can pour anything into - forever - just as people do.

 ???



 
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 12:30:13 AM by georger »
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Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1167 on: September 22, 2016, 12:33:10 AM »
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Can anyone shed light on the "maps" that Cooper supposedly asked for with his demand list?  Is this confirmed, and if so what were the maps provided, and what happened to them?

From Hancock interview, document SE 164-81, p.55:
"She stated that the hijacker made his demands known in this order:
1. He wanted the money first
2. He wanted people off the aircraft after money was onboard
3. He wanted parachutes and four crew meals
4. He wanted the plane completely re-fueled
5. He wanted maps"

From Mucklow interview, document PH 164-133, p.50:
"She told him that they had crew meals and maps, and requested permission to go get them.  He said "yes", and she did, returning the items and taking a seat next to him"


The maps that Al Lee, Chief NWA Pilot in Seattle, had delivered to the flight crew, along with the crew meals, were aircraft IFR navigation charts and instrument approach procedures.  This would be maps that the flight crew would need to get to Reno and further south.  Typically, the flight crew would be carrying such charts only for the area of their scheduled routes.

The maps that Cooper wanted were probably the same maps mentioned above.  If Cooper had specified a non-aviation map, he would be giving away information on his planned jump point.

The maps that Cooper wanted - he wanted maps

Im not sure Cooper wanted or ordered ANY maps!  I think the issue was leaving the plane for any purpose so they were explaining to Cooper why they needed to leave the plane or let people on the plane. The problem may be we dont have the full conversation in the transcripts - without that the context and exact order or who said what is sometimes impossible to understand.

There is no line that says he was given "the maps". There is no line stating he wanted maps. There is no line in the Pilot Notes that mentions maps as one of his demands. There is no testimony about him looking at maps he had been given. There is no testimony from anyone about what maps he was given. The only source for him wanting maps is the one line in a later interview Tina did but maps is not listed in his original demands in the Pilot Notes.

 ???


You are 100 percent correct that the only indication that Cooper wanted maps was that one line Tina remark.  The only maps that Al Lee sent to the airplane were in the same box as the crew meals and were aeronautical charts and approach plates that the flight crew needed to get to Mexico.  Cooper did not see those maps and did not discuss them with the flight crew.  And Cooper didn't say anything about the flight south that would require him to look at or discuss maps with the flight crew.



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haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1168 on: September 22, 2016, 01:00:16 AM »
quote from Robert 99:
You are 100 percent correct that the only indication that Cooper wanted maps was that one line Tina remark.  The only maps that Al Lee sent to the airplane were in the same box as the crew meals and were aeronautical charts and approach plates that the flight crew needed to get to Mexico.  Cooper did not see those maps and did not discuss them with the flight crew.  And Cooper didn't say anything about the flight south that would require him to look at or discuss maps with the flight crew.



                      D.B. agreed to let them refuel in Reno with no hesitation. He didn't need to reference a map then... I don't think D.B. was interested in a map. I think Tina's remark may have been in reference to the navigational charts(that the flight crew probably asked for?) that you mentioned earlier.

                       I wonder which member of the flight crew had to do the plotting ( would the crew be doing the fuel calculations also ? ) For whatever it matters, might Tina have seen this flight crew member doing calculations( maybe with the charts being confused by Tina as being maps). Wouldn't this flight crew person be doing these calculations outside the cockpit area ?

« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 01:14:46 AM by haggarknew »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1169 on: September 22, 2016, 01:13:30 AM »
The flight engineer would handle those issues.


I mentioned in the past that it's possible the crew demands were mixed in with Cooper's. if they knew Cooper wanted a map it would clearly show he has no idea where he is at. landing in the woods, a map is useless. what kind of map, Seattle, Portland area? dead give away....
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 01:53:23 AM by Shutter »
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