Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1830983 times)

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1140 on: September 10, 2016, 12:16:50 AM »
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Titanium, et al, on tie - New Theories

Dr. William Cover has sent me several emails concerning the titanium found on the tie. Today, he sent a very interesting summary that I think will pique your interest. Here is Dr. Cover's commentary:


Dear Bruce:

Has this line of reasoning been explored? More details below.

1. The minerals identified on the tie and the lycopodium spores are consistent with someone who works assembling pyrotechnic devices with unique formulations in 1971.
2. The brief case and the alleged bomb configuration is similar to a pyrotechnic device size and the appearance by a stewardess would be tricked into thinking it was a bomb. ( Would someone smoke cigarettes if he really had dynamite?)
3. The burning object or flash of light observed and reported in your book is consistent with igniting a pyrotechnic device after or before leaving the plane
Bill Cover

 Tie: titanium, bismuth, aluminum, lycopodium

Aluminum [Al]
Most widely used fuel in modern pyrotechnics; produces a brilliant, bright flame.  The particles come in several of different shapes, such as flakes and grains.  From <http://www.cannonfuse.com/store/pc/Pyrotechnic-Formulas-Chemical-Guide-d28.htm>

Bismuth Trioxide [Bi2O3]Used as a non-toxic alternative to lead tetraoxide to make crackling stars.

 Bismuth Subcarbonate [(BiO)2CO3]Also used as a non-toxic alternative to lead tetraoxide to make crackling stars.

 From <http://www.cannonfuse.com/store/pc/Pyrotechnic-Formulas-Chemical-Guide-d28.htm>

Titanium [Ti]Metal used to produce bright white sparks, the intensity and duration of which is affected by particle size.

 From <http://www.cannonfuse.com/store/pc/Pyrotechnic-Formulas-Chemical-Guide-d28.htm>

flashpot
 
Lycopodium has been used in fireworks and explosives, fingerprint powders, as a covering for pills, and as an ice cream stabilizer. Today, the principal use of the powder is to create flashes or flames that are large and impressive but relatively easy to manage safely in magic acts and for cinema and theatrical special effects.

brief bio

Dr. William H. Cover is an accomplished Scientist and Regulatory Affairs Professional with more than 25 years of proven leadership experience in the pharmaceutical, biotechnology, and medical device industries.  Dr. Cover has worked for both large and small start-up companies holding positions in functional areas that include regulatory affairs, drug development, validation, quality assurance/control, production, and research.  He has both domestic and global regulatory affairs experience with commercial products and product candidates in development (proteins, small molecules, gene therapy products, medical devices, generics, and combination products).


Prior to specializing in Regulatory Affairs, Dr. Cover was the Head Research Scientist at PurePulse Technologies and directed activities for 12 development collaborations with both major pharmaceutical/medical device companies as well as small start-up organizations with product targets such as vaccines, virus inactivation methods, and sterilization of combination products and implantable medical devices. He has patents, publications and invited presentations in his fields of expertise.


EDUCATION and Academic Experience

 - Juris Doctorate  (2006-2011) Taft University

Assistant Professor of Biochemistry and Microbiology (1987-1988)
  University of New Orleans

 -  Life Science Research Fellow (1984-87)  Washington State University

Post-Doctoral Scholar: Microbiology (1983) UCLA
Ph.D. Microbiology (1978-1982) UCLA
M. S. Microbiology (1976-1978) Virginia Tech
B. S.  Biology (1970-1974) Virginia Tech




Second Email, 9. 9. 16:

“...same technology would have been used to make flares in the military that have different colors...could still be a military person.â€


Third email, 9. 9. 16, regarding the "Fiery Object Theory"

"I do not think he had to intentionally ignite the pyrotechnic flash. Static electricity, mixing of chemicals as it left the plane (sudden jolt) while it is protected in the case. I assume he took the case or threw it out
 my understanding is it takes very little to accidently set off a charge in a homemade device.

Pyrotechnic theory satisfies Cooper as a real threat because igniting the device would cause the plane to catch fire and possibly crash. It is an exothermic reaction, so once it starts it keeps going. Maybe this is the only step that did not go as he planned.

A pyrotechnic composition is a substance or mixture of substances designed to produce an effect by heat, light, sound, gas/smoke or a combination of these, as a result of non-detonative self-sustaining exothermic chemical reactions."

The Dr. is spot-on except, all of the above was already suggested long ago - read Dropzone - Tom rejected it wholesale!

Nothing new is this!  :))

BTW, in the discussion about this at DZ Snowmman also revealed the existence of an ordinance facility (place where the military builds and tests ordinance) and test range east of the flight path and north of Vancouver. Some wondered if Cooper had a connection there. A trained person worked at this facility certainly would have been able to build fireworks in fact people move between such industries. Its all at DZ ............. sorry you guys missed this years ago!  I saved a map of the location of this 'ordinance facility - will take time to find..  O0 :)) :)) :)) 

In addition, one has to consider the standard formulas in use at the time. I believe the Dr is taking that into consideration. As to such a device being set off by static electricity or physical shock - Im not so sure about that option.  I have no doubt the bomb was used as a tool for convincing people to cooperate.. it was the simplest device for regulating behavior.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 01:15:00 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1141 on: September 10, 2016, 01:50:02 AM »
Whoa, I joined the DZ in October 2008 and I never heard of this stuff. You are the Patriarch of DBC Forums, G.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1142 on: September 10, 2016, 12:34:29 PM »
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Whoa, I joined the DZ in October 2008 and I never heard of this stuff. You are the Patriarch of DBC Forums, G.

Im guessing the posts appeared 'after' Tom had published his particle work. All one would have to do is go to Wiki and research the historical use of each substance Tom found, and Tom probably did that himself - others were doing it. Then the fact of an ordinance facility surfaced (by someone - Snow?). We already had the Janet story which most reject (Galen and I actually worked together on that). Underneath all of this is the question: why would someone resort to making a 'flare' (or even an explosive) when all you had to do was go buy flares or dynamite, or steal it?

We have the following facts: (a) correct ID by Tom of the substances found on the tie, (b) those substances were being used in explosives/pyro-technology in that era (the Dr is correct in his post), (c) the flare dropping incident at Eugene the week before 11/24, (d) Janet and her husband's report on 11/24, (e) military ordinance facility north of Vancouver. Are all of these related?  I don't know...

All of the above is posted at DZ.         

Did Cooper work at this military ordinance facility in Washington or have access to it?

« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 12:39:55 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1143 on: September 13, 2016, 03:11:02 PM »
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Whoa, I joined the DZ in October 2008 and I never heard of this stuff. You are the Patriarch of DBC Forums, G.

Flares, Janet report, Kaye particles, Military ordinary test range, etc .... original discussions at DZ 2010-13

Depending on how you parse the search, there are 99+ pages of posts on the above topics at DZ stretching from 2010 to 2013. Somewhere in that volume of posts are several posts about a military test range north of Vancouver, east of V23. Someone posted and identified that military ordinance depot/test facility ... because the discussion at the time involved: Kaye particles, the Janet story, flares, and the like. People were trying to identify possible sources for Kaye's particles ...

The Janet flare discussion centers on this DZ page here: Flare discussion here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I do recall that several posts asked if Cooper could have been an employee (military employee?) at this ordinance facility - which might account for the particles found on the tie. If you go back to the Janet story url above you will see that Sluggo introduced Janet's story, which lead to a 'flare' discussion all in an attempt to locate sources of Kaye's particles.

Somewhere in these pages is a post which identifies a military ordinance test facility north of Vancouver which was active in 1971. (It may have been Sluggo himself that identified this ordinance test facility).

In addition to Sluggo's original presentation of the 'Janet story', Sluggo also gives a url for the original newspaper article which presented the Janet story to the world - that url is now defunct but, I followed Sluggo's post with a copy of the original story. It's all there at Dropzone starting in 2010 centering on:

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It's worth noting that if Cooper was working and living in the area and had come to know the area, this might have given him access to NWO schedules to know when "the right place and time" (his words) for a hijacking had arrived. Especially given the fact this flight was a newly offered flight, which previously did not exist.  Cooper's own words "the right place and time" seem to suggest he had already decided to try and hijack a plane and was looking for the right opportunity.
 
 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 03:37:24 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1144 on: September 13, 2016, 06:18:27 PM »
I missed all of this. Maybe it was posted during my Lost Years: heart attack, Mom's health which required me to spend three months in NY, alien abductions.... you know how it goes....
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1145 on: September 13, 2016, 11:29:28 PM »
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I missed all of this. Maybe it was posted during my Lost Years: heart attack, Mom's health which required me to spend three months in NY, alien abductions.... you know how it goes....

One interesting thing to me (I had forgot!) was it was Sluggo who introduced the Janet story! And he did so in great fashion = fairly without judgement. Then it all made sense because I recall at the time Wayne was communicating a lot with Cook. So I am sure Galen passed on the Janet story to Wayne.

I really wish I could recover the name and location of that ordinance facility/test range that someone brought up during those discussions.

Shutter do you remember any of this - can you add anything!?   ;)   
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 11:30:00 PM by georger »
 

haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1146 on: September 15, 2016, 09:12:50 PM »
Re:georger   One interesting thing to me (I had forgot!) was it was Sluggo who introduced the Janet story! And he did so in great fashion = fairly without judgement. Then it all made sense because I recall at the time Wayne was communicating a lot with Cook. So I am sure Galen passed on the Janet story to Wayne.

I really wish I could recover the name and location of that ordinance facility/test range that someone brought up during those discussions.
                       

                             I seem to vaguely remember Hager mentioning some ordinance facility. I can't remember much about it though. Was it possibly just east of Mt. St. Helens? I really don't remember, it might have been closer to the middle of the state.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1147 on: September 15, 2016, 10:10:04 PM »
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Re:georger   One interesting thing to me (I had forgot!) was it was Sluggo who introduced the Janet story! And he did so in great fashion = fairly without judgement. Then it all made sense because I recall at the time Wayne was communicating a lot with Cook. So I am sure Galen passed on the Janet story to Wayne.

I really wish I could recover the name and location of that ordinance facility/test range that someone brought up during those discussions.
                       

                             I seem to vaguely remember Hager mentioning some ordinance facility. I can't remember much about it though. Was it possibly just east of Mt. St. Helens? I really don't remember, it might have been closer to the middle of the state.

If anyone here is thinking about the "Yakima Training Center", as it is now known, and which is on the east side of Yakima and the west side of the "US Department of Energy Hanford Site", then the Yakima Training Center is, or at least used to be, an artillery firing range.

But it is a long was east of Vancouver, WA.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1148 on: September 15, 2016, 10:23:25 PM »
Hey Hagar, I walked through Fruit Valley on my way to T-Bar for the TC shoot. Wasn't it you who talked about living in Fruit Valley and meeting your guy there?
 

haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1149 on: September 15, 2016, 10:42:52 PM »
Re:Bruce


 

Hey Hagar, I walked through Fruit Valley on my way to T-Bar for the TC shoot. Wasn't it you who talked about living in Fruit Valley and meeting your guy there?


                       I am not sure where Fruit Valley is located. Hager said that Chuck Dooley (D. B. Cooper) lived in an area about 15 or 20 miles west of I-5. I believe it was close to where I-5 and the Columbian River meet. Not too far from where the bridge across the river is. (maybe just a little further north)  Hager said at one time it was an orchard that must have been developed into some type of residential rental properties.
 

haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1150 on: September 15, 2016, 10:47:22 PM »
              By the way, I am really looking forward to seeing the documentary on the Tina Bar shoot. Hope you or Robert or Meyer  will keep us updated.  Thank you.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1151 on: September 15, 2016, 11:32:37 PM »
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              By the way, I am really looking forward to seeing the documentary on the Tina Bar shoot. Hope you or Robert or Meyer  will keep us updated.  Thank you.

Keep tabs on the posts on "Travel Channel Expedition Unknown".  New episodes, plus re-runs of previously aired programs, can keep you out of trouble on Wednesday evenings in the meantime.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 11:33:10 PM by Robert99 »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1152 on: September 15, 2016, 11:33:36 PM »
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Re:georger   One interesting thing to me (I had forgot!) was it was Sluggo who introduced the Janet story! And he did so in great fashion = fairly without judgement. Then it all made sense because I recall at the time Wayne was communicating a lot with Cook. So I am sure Galen passed on the Janet story to Wayne.

I really wish I could recover the name and location of that ordinance facility/test range that someone brought up during those discussions.
                       

                             I seem to vaguely remember Hager mentioning some ordinance facility. I can't remember much about it though. Was it possibly just east of Mt. St. Helens? I really don't remember, it might have been closer to the middle of the state.

I usually make a map of such things people ID but in this case I guess I didnt ...I spent hours searching. If I remember this correctly it was north of Battleground/Orchards and east some distance from V23. I dont remember St Helens being close to it but Im not sure now .... I wish Sluggo was here, he would know in an instant what Im talking about.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1153 on: September 15, 2016, 11:35:26 PM »
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Re:georger   One interesting thing to me (I had forgot!) was it was Sluggo who introduced the Janet story! And he did so in great fashion = fairly without judgement. Then it all made sense because I recall at the time Wayne was communicating a lot with Cook. So I am sure Galen passed on the Janet story to Wayne.

I really wish I could recover the name and location of that ordinance facility/test range that someone brought up during those discussions.
                       

                             I seem to vaguely remember Hager mentioning some ordinance facility. I can't remember much about it though. Was it possibly just east of Mt. St. Helens? I really don't remember, it might have been closer to the middle of the state.

If anyone here is thinking about the "Yakima Training Center", as it is now known, and which is on the east side of Yakima and the west side of the "US Department of Energy Hanford Site", then the Yakima Training Center is, or at least used to be, an artillery firing range.

But it is a long was east of Vancouver, WA.

Yakima doesnt ring a bell but ... Im really not sure now.  Let me do some searches at DZ using /yakima/...

ps ... found it.  It is the Yakima Firing Center  ... will be back with more.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 12:07:01 AM by georger »
 

haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1154 on: September 15, 2016, 11:37:10 PM »
Re: Robert 99
Keep tabs on the posts on "Travel Channel Expedition Unknown".  New episodes, plus re-runs of previously aired programs, can keep you out of trouble on Wednesday evenings in the meantime.
                 
                        Thank you Robert.  Will do.  Looking forward to seeing it.