Bruce wrote: "There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach."

I worked in the field way back. FLIRS in 1971, the military grade ones with cryo cooled detectors, had quite good performance, but image recognition processing was in its infancy. Over the years, the performance of uncooled consumer grade FLIRS has improved and image recognition software performance today is phenomenal. Today it has evolved into options on automobiles. Look at this video: 
I have used the Audi NV system. Its ability to recognize humans and bracket them in yellow or red (depending on collision danger) is remarkable. You can have a group of people walking with dogs. The people are bracketed and the dogs are not. I think it looks for vertically oriented targets with human aspect ratios and temps around 98 degrees F. If it sees that it calls it a human. Just a guess on the software algorithms.

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@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?

Thank you, Mack.

1. You ask a reasonable question about what Rataczak would have told the FBI about his flight path and where they should be looking for DB Cooper. It seems that Rataczak did tell Himmelsbach that 305 was east of Victor 23 and probably  over the Washougal. But when did he tell him? That is not known, really. Certainly not by me. Also, when and to what degree did Rataczak push the Washougal information towards the Seattle FBI agents? Again, unknown.

2. As I understand the case, about 30 agents were assigned to Norjak on the night of the skyjacking. This comes from Sid Rubin, a rookie SA on the case that night at Sea-Tac perimeter duty. Another SA rookie, George Grobin, told me that about two-dozen FBI agents were in the Amboy-Ariel area for the ground searches in March and April 1972. They did not get their shoes too muddy, but they were nearby. Over the course of the investigation, Bob Sale told Sailshaw and me that about five agents were assigned in Seattle  to Cooper through the first few years, with other Seattle agents being assigned as squads got special assignments, such as interviewing SOG guys at Fort Bragg, etc.

Yes, an SR-71 was assigned to fly recon over the potential LZ, but it was hampered most of the time due to cloud cover. I think it only had one or two "successful" missions. Geoffrey Gray discusses this aspect of the investigation in his  book, SKYJACK. There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach. Now, I would imagine that the NSA has got high tech gizmos on satellites to accomplish the same task.

Tom McDowell, the Cowlitz County Undersheriff who headed the ground search in LZ-A said that his search area was approximately 24 square miles, and his team of 20-24 deputies and volunteers covered about one square mile of terrain from Friday at 1pm until Monday morning when the search was terminated. That's basically three days with 20 guys to cover 5% of the prime LZ.

Bottom Line: A needle in a haystack is still a needle in a haystack even when you're looking with the latest gear.

It's a remarkable safety enhancement. It's not perfect though, mostly due to physics not design faults. Performance depends on temp DIFFERENCE, so if you have a 98 degree F night, you won't be seeing people as contrasting targets. Also rain degrades performance substantially. Thermal IR doesn't go through water very well.

I remember when working in the military FLIR field decades ago, it was thought that good performance required cryogenically cooled IR detectors made out of exotic alloys like Mercury Cadmium Telluride and Lead and Selenium. I don't recall Yttrium though. 

Nobody envisioned anything as good as Audi's system with uncooled detectors.

FLIR Systems makes a cheap add on for smart phones that does a decent job at thermal imaging:

377

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@ Bruce.
The presentations you posted on YouTube are very well done.  I watched all of them and was impressed with your presentation skills and for your ability to convey the Cooper story to the public.

I have a couple of questions about comments you make during those presentations.

1) Re: Tina Bar money find. You mention that the pilot, Bill Rataczak, requested and was denied permission to fly out over the ocean.  After that idea was  nixed you theorize that Rataczak opted to fly as far east in the flight corridor as permissible in order to take DBC over more remote terrain and therefore Cooper's LZ would have been further east than what the FBI calculated. 
Question: wouldn't Rataczak have informed the FBI of this during his interviews so they would know where to look? After all, he was angry and wanted Cooper dead or caught as you said?

2) Re: Criticisim of the FBI for not getting their suits dirty and beating the bushes to look for Cooper. Question:  How many FBI agents where assigned to this case and available to go searching for Cooper in the suspected LZ? What percentage of the LZ could they have covered in one week's time?   I recall reading somewhere that the USAF flew SR-71 and other reconnaissance missions in support of the manhunt.  Any truth to that and wouldn't that be more effective than sending all available personnel into the woods where they would be out of contact during a critical time in the case?

Thank you, Mack.

1. You ask a reasonable question about what Rataczak would have told the FBI about his flight path and where they should be looking for DB Cooper. It seems that Rataczak did tell Himmelsbach that 305 was east of Victor 23 and probably  over the Washougal. But when did he tell him? That is not known, really. Certainly not by me. Also, when and to what degree did Rataczak push the Washougal information towards the Seattle FBI agents? Again, unknown.

2. As I understand the case, about 30 agents were assigned to Norjak on the night of the skyjacking. This comes from Sid Rubin, a rookie SA on the case that night at Sea-Tac perimeter duty. Another SA rookie, George Grobin, told me that about two-dozen FBI agents were in the Amboy-Ariel area for the ground searches in March and April 1972. They did not get their shoes too muddy, but they were nearby. Over the course of the investigation, Bob Sale told Sailshaw and me that about five agents were assigned in Seattle  to Cooper through the first few years, with other Seattle agents being assigned as squads got special assignments, such as interviewing SOG guys at Fort Bragg, etc.

Yes, an SR-71 was assigned to fly recon over the potential LZ, but it was hampered most of the time due to cloud cover. I think it only had one or two "successful" missions. Geoffrey Gray discusses this aspect of the investigation in his  book, SKYJACK. There has been discussion here about a more reasonable technological means - using infrared devices immediately via helos and flying through the night to search for a warm body in the woods. Yes, the false reads due to wildlife would be staggering, but it is a plausible approach. Now, I would imagine that the NSA has got high tech gizmos on satellites to accomplish the same task.

Tom McDowell, the Cowlitz County Undersheriff who headed the ground search in LZ-A said that his search area was approximately 24 square miles, and his team of 20-24 deputies and volunteers covered about one square mile of terrain from Friday at 1pm until Monday morning when the search was terminated. That's basically three days with 20 guys to cover 5% of the prime LZ.

Bottom Line: A needle in a haystack is still a needle in a haystack even when you're looking with the latest gear.

Babbayaga says:


BruceSmith

Sep 21, 2014, 1:08 AM
Post #55550 of 58140 (23917 views)
Shortcut
   
     Where was 305? [In reply to]    
I see there is a lot of talk about chatting with Rataczak to clarify where 305 was when Cooper jumped.

That might be useful, but I also think it would be worthwhile to review what has already been revealed by the principals.

1. Rataczak told me he did know where 305 was when DBC jumped. Later in our 70-minute phone conversation he said that 305 was east of V-23 by a couple miles due to the wind.

2. Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal.

3. Mrs. Cooper says that Rataczak told her that he could see the lights of Vancouver to the right. Not sure what that means. It sounds like perfect Jo Weber haze. But it could very well be V-23-ish, too.

4. Calame and Rhodes say that Scott told the folks at Himms' retirement party in 1980 that 305 was west of V-23 and over Woodland, WA.

5. Larry says V-23 All the Way to Red Bluff, CA!

6. Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA says that the transmission from Seattle Center she heard were reporting east of V-23 to Gresham and then up the Columbia River Gorge.

7. Multiple eye witnesses allegedly report that they saw a burning object descend from a low-flying aircraft just west of the I-5 bridge over the Columbia, just about the time that 305 passed over the area.

So, what does this mishigas tell us about Norjak? It's just what the FBI likes for public consumption - perfectly mucked up or just another day in the Cooper Vortex?


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Sep 21, 2014, 1:39 AM)

Bruce, the next time you are inclined to publish the above information (that Georger has quoted) just drink a bottle of your favorite beverage and get a good night's sleep.  Things will probably look better the next day.

What on God's Green Earth would the airliner be doing flying east up the Columbia River Gorge?  Reno is where it was headed and is a long way south of the Columbia River.

Where does Rataczak say that he saw the lights of Portland to the right of the aircraft?  As I remember it, Rataczak is quoted as just saying that he could see  the lights of Portland - Period.  From he seat on the right side of the aircraft, Rataczak could see objects on the ground on the left side of and in front of the aircraft.  If you are quoting Jo Weber correctly, she probably just jumped to the conclusion that if Rataczak saw some lights then they had to be on the right side of the airplane and that is simply not true.

If all of these stories about the airliner being east of V-23 and passing on the east side of Portland, then why were all the planes that tried to intercept the airliner, including Himmelsbach's helicopter, vectored to the west and southwest sides of Portland?

You refer to yourself as a "Cooper Investigator" and journalist.  So please don't add more layers of nonsense to the onion.  If possible, help peel off some layers of the onion and get everything back to the actual facts.

...Its all Smith's gaslighting...